Michelle Holland: 0:01

Employee Engagement can be an indicator of a positive culture. But it's not necessarily an indicator of pro productive culture. The stats actually show that more people left in the last 12 months that have left in the 12 months preceding, so the resignation numbers have definitely gone up. If they're leaving the organisation and they actually have a respectful exit, then they're more likely to say that was a great place to work.

Daniel Franco: 0:36

The world at the moment is thrown cash around in salary around like no tomorrow and what can we do as businesses and organisations to ensure that our people are engaged and connected to the work they're doing?

Michelle Holland: 0:49

My firm belief is culture is not just about people. Culture is about the DNA of the business, how we how we function as a as a successful, efficient business. And one of the outcomes of that is then the experience that people have at work.

Daniel Franco: 1:09

Hi, there, my name is Daniel Franco. And this is the creating synergy podcast, your business and leadership podcast where we speak to high profile leaders and thinkers about their careers and dig deep by asking the questions we all want the answers to uncovering their stories, strategies, leadership lessons, and their secrets to success. Today on the show, we have Michelle Holland, who is an author, speaker and Executive Director at Synergy IQ talking to us about the great resignation, or how she describes as the great reality check. We also discuss how to attract and retain talent, and the important role that leadership and culture play. We also talked about some real life scenarios that have played out in organisations where Michelle shares her wisdom. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Michelle Holland. So welcome back to the creating synergy podcast. My name is Daniel Franco. And I just want to start off with with saying that we've invited a very special guest or returning returning podcastee to the show my business partner Michelle Hello and welcome back.

Michelle Holland: 2:15

Thank you, I must be like reigning champion,

Daniel Franco: 2:19

you are leading front runner Yeah, been on more than anyone which is amazing. And not just a gap filler you are, you are definitely, definitely have a voice worth listening to. I am one thing where I wanted you to come back on the show was we ran a sort of a an event a couple of weeks ago, where we were talking about the great resignation versus the grim reality and the way you put it, and, and this event was like sold out in minutes and had a waiting list. And it was a very successful event. But what sort of jumped out at me it was it's definitely front and centre of on the minds of the C suite or of the leaders of businesses and large organisations and, and both from an attraction and a retention point of view. And I really want to just to deep dive into this world with you. And given your history. And you know, you are the founder and director of synergy IQ you work with some amazing companies globally in this space, and then not to mention, you've got your culturing book that talks about how you know it's a how to guide for leaders in this space. So who else better they get on to talk about this topic, then you Thanks. So I want to draw that deep dive straight into the issue. And it seems like now more than ever, and I wanted to get your opinion on why that business people are leaving businesses in droves? It seems.

Michelle Holland: 3:55

Yeah. Yeah, I think this is where these headliners are coming from so the you know, the great resignation or the great reset, I think I've heard it be called as well. And I've called it the great reality check. Because I think it is more of a reality check for organisations. People are leaving in droves. Let's say the stats actually show that more people left in the last 12 months that have left in the 12 months preceding well, so the resignation numbers have definitely gone up. Interestingly, over the last 10 years, the resignation numbers have tracked down. So there's been some level of maybe a bit of apathy with businesses thinking that they're doing what they need to do to keep their people and I believe that the the learning that we had through the pandemic time so let's say the last two, two and a half years has really shown people that they can expect something different. They actually can work in different ways. And that life is actually quite short, because we've had some really tragic learnings over the last number of years as well. So people are looking at their life in a bit of a different way, and they're wanting to be more integrated. That's what it's, you know, we we spent six months working from home. So it's really told people that they can almost have their cake and eat it, too. The problem is, is that organisations and many organisations just haven't got with the programme yet. And although they've done this, you know, oh, you know, no, it's okay to have a day or so at home, they're still mandating time in the office, they're still saying, No, you can only work two days, and you have to be in the office three days, or you have to be in on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so you can have a Thursday, Friday off. So it's all about them, like this hybrid working becomes all about the organisation and not about a shared mutual arrangement. So I believe that people are just going you know what, there are other organisations out there that actually are a little bit more mature, that they can they look at flexibility in what flexibility actually means it's about flexing backwards and forwards, it's not about flexing one way or the other way, that there's a balanced approach, that they can have integration, that they can be more contemporary and more mature in the way they're working. So the expectations have shifted and changed. So if I'm sitting in an organisation where, you know, I went home, and I had this, you know, flexibility, and now they're telling me, I have to come back into the workplace. And actually, the company down the road has set up, you know, they do the same sort of work that we do they, you know, have similar conditions of employment as we do, you know, salaries, we'll talk about that, you know, in a bit, but salaries kind of go up and down all over the place. But they actually offer true felt flexibility and respect, therefore, for their people. Why am I going to stay here? When I could go there? Because we know that particularly in certain areas in the business world right now, there is some skill shortages. And that's particularly being felt here in Australia, and particularly in Adelaide because of the squeeze on immigration over the last few years, because immigration has really helped build our workforces, particularly in those tight skill areas. That means that people are stealing from each other. Yeah, right. They just, you know, everybody's sort of cycling through. So if I've got more of a choice as an employee, I'm voting with my feet.

Daniel Franco: 7:39

Just a quick note, this episode is brought to you by Synergy. IQ leaders in enabling change. Synergy IQ are the ones you call when the change or challenge seems so complex, and you don't know where to start. But more importantly, were the ones you call when you want to make a change that will actually last, if you want to check them out. It's at Synergy. iq.com.au is the sole reason? Well, one of the main contributors, that hybrid way of working like for me, and if I think if I'm an employer, employee within a business, I'm actually attracted to the business that has everyone more people in the office, right, just giving them a personality type. Is that do you think the only reason or it's just one of the contributors?

Michelle Holland: 8:22

I think it's been a contributor to the new way of thinking,

Daniel Franco: 8:26

so the last 12 months is what you're talking about. Okay.

Michelle Holland: 8:28

Yeah, absolutely. So we've always been wanting to have more of a flexible working environment. I mean, I come from the HR profession, I mean, HR for over 25 years, we've been fighting for more flexibility in the workplace for 25 years, right? This is not a new thing. What ended up happening. And I remember talking with a number of my HR colleagues over that sort of first six months of the pandemic, and many of them said, you know, I've been fighting to get flexible, working from home or flexible working conditions in place. And, you know, my exec keeps saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that. We can't do that. We can't do that. For all sorts of reasons, security, technology that won't do their job, you know, we can't manage them all of the reasons under the sun that they come up with. And all of a sudden the pandemic hits, and guess what, everybody worked from home, and everybody did it quite well. Right. So it's not like it was a perfect system. Yes, there was ups and downs and some things, you know, weren't brilliant. But we had clients that went from I mean, I remember one talking to one client, who is they're a technology department, and they said they've been trying to implement teams into their organisation for 18 months. And what happened overnight, and it ended up happening within six weeks, you know, and they are a very complex organisation as well. So they are doing education online. So it's it's like It actually this stuff can happen. And I think that's one of the elements as well as like, not just that, okay, now we can have these things that we wanting for ages because the world shifted, and it pushed us into this space. But also, it made us use more and more unique and different kinds of ways of working as well. So different kinds of technology. You know, we all know that, you know, the video conferencing systems went through the roof during that time, you know, Mr. Zoom, zoom,

Daniel Franco: 10:32

right, we couldn't buy a webcam, I remember

Michelle Holland: 10:34

it, well couldn't buy a webcam. That's right. So all of that stuff just went absolutely through the roof. But what it did show with people as well as like, oh, there's other ways that we can do different kinds of work. So can we be a bit more unique? Can we be a bit more innovative in the way we're doing things? And I think what happened during this period of time, it really highlighted the organisations that are on able to be innovative. Yeah, in the ways they're doing their services and their ways of working. And, and that, to me, is probably one of the main reasons why people are voting with their feet. It's like, yeah, flexibility is great, but flexibility plus innovation plus meaningful work plus a good place to work. You know, excetera

Daniel Franco: 11:16

Yeah. So that's where it comes down to the culture of the of the organisation. Yeah, because like, there's, there's organisations and one of our clients in defence, that they could not work from home because of the security elements of the projects they were working on, like a Wi Fi connection at home or an online at home, you know, for these higher level clearance projects is not isn't you're not able to, but not only that, then, you know, construction companies, there's, like, you know, people labour like blue collar workers, so they'll work from home isn't this one size fits all people leave? Because I think culturally the business isn't where it's at, or the leadership's not where it needs to be. Or, you know, there's all those other reasons that come into play.

Michelle Holland: 11:57

Yeah, absolutely. And look, the highest number of turnover, not surprising over the last couple of years. And this adds to all those stats that we keep looking at is in retail and hospitality. And in reality, the majority of those happen, because people were actually laid off. Yeah, right. So we're so the, the stats are a bit skewed, but when you just look at things like let's say the the IT sector, because we all feel that squeeze right in the IT sector, there definitely is a shift. Alright, so you can kind of look at and do a comparison there. The the overarching stats, it's a bit hard because of that skew, because, you know, there was a lot of I mean, hospitality, and retail, and events, and all that sort of stuff completely stopped during that period of time, those sectors were decimated. So it's not surprising that those people left to go find jobs elsewhere. So it's not just the work from home kind of situation is the Where do I go next? Because this isn't an option for me anymore, you know? So there's many different reasons. And there's never ever one reason why a person leaves an organisation, right? So it might be, I'm leaving the organisation because I've actually reached the ceiling of my career in this organisation. And actually, the culture is great. The peoples are great, the leadership's great, the works great, but I've got nowhere else to go. Because no one nobody's leaving at those more top levels. So if I want to progress in my career, then I may have to do that outside of the organisation. The thing is with that, if you've got a great organisation, if you do, then get a senior position that opens up in your organisation, that person that's left and they've gone off and got some experience somewhere else. You can pull them back.

Daniel Franco: 13:45

Yeah, great. Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle Holland: 13:46

Right. So they've got a now they've got external, extra experience. So it makes sense to burn bridges, right? Oh, no, absolutely. And this is where the entire experience of work is really important. And, you know, which, you know, we will call culture, people understand it as culture. But I like to think about it as the experience of work because it feels more broad to me, than what we traditionally called culture, we tend to get a bit we get a bit stuck in the, you know, are people happy? Or are people not happy? You know, we'll look at engagement scores and think, Oh, everybody seems to have high engagement scores. So our culture is great. And that's not the case like employee engagement can be an indicator of a positive culture. But it's not necessarily an indicator of a pro productive culture, or a high performance culture or whatever the culture is that you actually need for your business, to keep the kind of people you need to have in your business. And so often leaving I think,

Daniel Franco: 14:55

one of the most important metrics and you talk about working perience or experience experience of work? I think I would even say the experience of the organisation, right? Wouldn't one of the key metrics be? What is this person saying about you when they're leaving the business?

Michelle Holland: 15:12

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What are they? Yeah, that's that the barbecue con? Yeah. Conversation. It's the brand. Yeah. So we think about, you know, brand being, what are people saying about you, and you're not in the room, right? That's actually what your brand is. So if they're leaving the organisation, and they actually have a respectful exit, then they're more likely to say, that was a great place to work. Yeah, well,

Daniel Franco: 15:36

they helped me get to the level that we leave,

Michelle Holland: 15:39

you know, progress, my career and all of and, those amazing things, right. So it is really, culture, the experience of work starts from the moment that you have your first contact with a potential person that you want to work with you. And that might be through your marketing and media. Yeah. Right. You watching ads on TV for Virgin, you go, gee, they look like a fun place to work, right, just because of the way they promoting their services. So that's your first initial, oh, seems like an interesting experience. So if then say I apply for a job, we'll just use virgin as a as an exam, because we know they've actually got, you know, a reputation for having a good experience at work. So apply for a job at Virgin, let's say, and I've had this initial kind of, oh, they look like they're pretty cool. And then I go through this process where I'm contacted straightaway that my application has been received. I'm like, Cool. That's great. That's awesome. And then like, I get to interview, let's say, and the interview process is really enjoyable to go through. Awesome. And then I have a follow up. Great. And then I'm offered a contract for a salary that I believe is fair. Great, you know, the entitlements look, yeah, this is awesome, right? So all I'm having these great experiences, that's part of your culture. Yeah, that's you leading to your culture, then I come on, and I'm on boarded, well, then I have a good experience with my leader, then they care about how I work, then they care about how my career develops through that time. And then I get to a point where I need to leave because my family's moving interstate or there's this great job opportunity that's happened that I just cannot let go. And they gracefully exit me from the business. I love that employer. Yeah, right. That's the place. I wanna

Daniel Franco: 17:39

You say good things about that. Totally. When someone reaches out, oh, you work there. Tell me a little bit about the great

Michelle Holland: 17:44

that's exactly right

Daniel Franco: 17:45

then the reason why I'm where I am today.

Michelle Holland: 17:46

Yes. And if you think about a return on investment aspect of this as well. So say I'm a business leader, the virgin don't just do this, because it's morally the right thing to do. That's one reason, right? Morally, it's the right thing to do to treat people with respect. But they're actually very savvy business people. They know that their people are their best salespeople, right? So they're going out, and they're spreading the good word about virgin to every other person that is a customer. And all of a sudden, all of the customers, I might not want to work for Virgin, but boy, I treat them but they although they treat their people well, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go buy from them. Yeah. All right. So we use a little formula when we're talking to organisations about culture, which is Cx plus LX equals, sorry, EX plus LX equals CX, right, which is the employee experience plus the leadership experience equals the customer experience. They are not mutually exclusive. So if you want to improve your customer experience, you must must improve your internal experience, which

Daniel Franco: 19:00

is your internal culture. But I think one thing which is the the overwhelming I guess, thing for for the leis of businesses is you got 1000 odd people here and you know, the culture is not so great, or how do you how do you turn that around? And and what I'm hearing just through your explanation of, of onboarding, and off boarding and all the above, it's, it's all the little things that go together, isn't it? It's not just because you actually have to chip away slowly at least

Michelle Holland: 19:33

Yeah, it's it's not one thing, and I think this is one of the critical areas. Going back to that great reality check. I know when we go in and speak with organisations about culture, because they might, you know, we might get a call from a leader saying, hey, you know, we want to we want to address our culture. We want to have a culture programme, or whatever they'll call it, you know, quote unquote sarcastic quote mark programme. where they want to, you know, tackle their culture or their culture is not great, whatever the the wording is that they they invited seem to have a conversation around, and then we start to talk to them about what actually needs to occur to shift a culture is sometimes they get frightened off by that, because it's not one thing,

Daniel Franco: 20:19

it's generally long.

Michelle Holland: 20:21

And it's generally it takes a long time as well, and particularly if your culture that you have right now is well embedded, so if it's well embedded, so say, you know, say you're an organisation, if you know, 50 years, 50 years old, you've been around for a while, you are deeply ingrained in the habits of your business. So like a human has habits that are deeply ingrained. And they you know, like a human habits carve out pathways in the brain, right? So they're hard to break. organisations have those pathways as well. And they're called systems and processes. So we get into these habits, and then we established them through systems and processes and policy, and decision making, and codes of practice and all of these other things. So what we actually do is the culture that we've currently got, we've got a system of structure in our business that holds that culture where it is. So to shift a culture, you have to shift the structural systems, that stuff is hard, because some of those structural systems are the way leaders make decisions, the way leaders delegate or don't, you know, the way that we we select people and move people on? Or don't, you know, all of those things are hard decisions. They're hard things to do. And sometimes I can get a bit scary for later trying to shift things. If I was to say, what would what would I suggest to those leaders, where they're like, I've got 1000s of people? What the heck do

Daniel Franco: 22:00

I mean, this is the number one question we get. Well, we started or I

Michelle Holland: 22:04

started Yeah, absolutely. And the the answer for the generic person. Yeah, to where do we start for me is always where do you want to go? What kind of culture do you actually want? And that's not a yeah, for this control group, or for either a control group or one size fits. All. Right? So I want to break down a bit of a myth around some of the culture tools out there. So there's a number of culture tools that either diagnose your culture, or they'll measure, like and review your culture. So those are very different things. But they give a result at the end. And they benchmark that result against a particular framework or model regarding doesn't matter what the tool is, there's always a framework or model that they benchmark against. I think the unfortunate thing is, is that people think that that's, that's the culture like is the framework is the model is the culture. And it's not, it's just a framework of behaviour that either research or practice has said, this has better outcomes. Yeah. My approach is always for the database of the people who have gone through this other companies that have gone through this, right. So. And that's the difference between the diagnostic diagnostic models and the review models is the review models are generally benchmarked against the database. So I've done this survey before, therefore, you're benchmarking against me? Yeah. Whereas the diagnostic model is a research based model. And it's benchmarked against a control group. Yeah. So it's a very

Daniel Franco: 23:43

thing. I think what you're saying there is the different most important thing is it's not one size fits all. I mean, there is there is company cultures, which have the work hard play hard philosophy, and yeah, hire for those type of people that enjoy that environment. Absolutely. And there's other cultures that it's like, well, this is a safe space. This is what we're offering. This is the employee benefits. And yeah, and then people are attracted to that. So you pick and choose the type of people you want to work in your business.

Michelle Holland: 24:07

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, you know, the terminology around Employer of Choice or EVP employee value proposition. So most people have heard them in some shape or form. I mean, we've got awards for employer of choice, and all those sort of things. Again, it makes it so generic, like it makes it so bloody generic that it actually becomes meaningless. Yeah. So you know, I'm a awarded best employer in Australia, but I'm basing it on just a very generic set of criteria. That doesn't make me the best employer for the type of people that I want to have in my business. It only makes me the best employer against that specific set of criteria. So again, although those may be a good indicator for people to go, Okay, well, that seems to be a good employer because at least doing the basics right. Yeah. But whether they're right for me, is a whole other story. Right? So as far as culture is concerned, and going back to that question, where do I start for later? And I've got this organisation, it's what kind of culture do you need to deliver on the results that you want? That's the question that needs to be answered. And that is, and has to be different from every for every organisation. So it's the same as your marketing team would ask you, what sort of brand experience do you want your customer to have? That needs to be unique? What's your positioning? It's the same as culture, right? What's your positioning here? Because the reality is, is that your competitors, they can copy yours, your models of product, right? They can copy your products, they can copy your price points. They can probably even copy your processes. But they can't copy your, your whole culture. Yeah, it just can't because it's the DNA of the business. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 25:59

I think that's really interesting sending when we do our onboarding here to Jackie, like, it's funny, because we've invited a few people of late and one of the reoccurring comments is I think I found my tribe, right, because they've they've come into a business that shares the same values as them that shares the same goals and visions of the workforce as they do. And I think that it's really benefiting, but there are some people, you know, particularly an engineering firm, or a tech firm that our culture won't fit. It's completely different. So it is I do like that. It's about starting with the end in mind. Right?

Michelle Holland: 26:38

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting thing. I actually had done somebody last night asked me how I'm going, you know, recruiting for my, for the business. And, and I said, not having a problem, actually, right now, I'm turning people away. Like, I'm literally saying to people, this isn't the right place for you. Yeah, you know, thank you. And you're amazing. But it's not right for you. Yeah. You know, so and I think that's really important for organisations to get to as well is that there is a certain person that is right for your business. And then there are people that aren't right for your business. So

Daniel Franco: 27:11

always comes back to the Jim Collins, get the right people on the bus right?

Michelle Holland: 27:15

Well, yeah, yeah. Does and but you need to know where the bus is going. So I think that's the thing. I disagree a little bit with Jim Collins, because he's like, get the people on the bus. And then we'll figure out where we're going. I'm kind of like, if you don't know where you're going, what sort of people are you getting on the bus? Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 27:30

Well, I mean, that's common sense. Isn't it really, like Where where are we going? And you hire for those people that are I think it was common. It's common sense because we work in that world?

Michelle Holland: 27:40

I think. That's exactly right. But it's not so common. I think that's the unfortunate thing is, so when we say where do we start, we start with the end in mind. And we help plot that out, you know, by just doing, you know, from very courageous and curiosity, questioning and inquiry, right. So we can really help sort of model that and mould that. But it is really about creating the culture you want. Oh sorry, the culture you need? Yeah, for the results that you want. So what happens

Daniel Franco: 28:13

if, like you, we, you've seen this numerous times, and we've as a business I've seen this numerous times is, one CEO moves out and new CEO moves in, and there's a different viewpoint on where the culture is at and it creates confusion, absolutely creates lack of clarity. And all of a sudden, you see the it started from the board, doesn't it? Right? Currently, we've got a culture that he's working, these things seem autonomous things are flowing really, really well. And the engagement of our people is high. And, you know, revenues are high. And then for some reason, they appoint a new CEO that has a different vision or a different outlook, because they want this new innovative type per sometimes the caretaker CEO is a smart option in this in this case, Is that Is that correct or not?

Michelle Holland: 29:09

Yeah, it could be. It really depends on the circumstance. So I mean, some of the questions that I would ask in that circumstance is, how much is the board involved in integrated into the culture? Yeah, like, do we have culture conversations with the board? Do we make sure that the board's understanding of the direction that we're heading in is the same understanding as the organization's because there is a lot of times where the board has a particular view, and then the organisation has a particular view and the administration and the, you know, the governance don't kind of meet? And you see that a lot in local government, unfortunately, but you know, it's the same in organisations with boards. So that would be my first question. Because if they're not aligned, then they're going to choose somebody that they like, right that's aligned to their vision, not necessarily the entire vision of the organisation.

Daniel Franco: 30:01

credentials or whatever it might be.

Michelle Holland: 30:03

but in the, in the case, let's say of a board and an organisation that are very aligned and they're working in the same though working in tracking in the same model, then potentially a caretaker CEO from the organisation might be the right option, if the capability and skill set is available, yeah,

Daniel Franco: 30:22

is I still need to be a high quality individual,

Michelle Holland: 30:25

have to have that capability and capacity to they be able to do the job at that level, because it it does take a different level of thinking. So it's not just, you know, one of the things that we see the biggest gap in in executive leaders is their ability to actually lead at an executive level. They might be good people leaders, they might be good performance and project leaders, but they don't step into that executive leadership position. So they're usually the people that are being chosen for that caretaker CEO role, let's say. And if they don't have the ability to lead at an executive level, then they're going to struggle to lead in this as a CEO, as well, because an executive leadership is very different than a senior manager leadership or team manager leadership. And unfortunately, I see more executive leaders working as either senior leaders or even team leaders, because they just drop into other people's work, you know, they drop all the way down into the hows, i do need to know that projects got over the line yet. Yes, I know, you don't. You need to know whether your leaders are leading well. That's what you need to be focusing on.

Daniel Franco: 31:40

Very true. And we will deep dive into that little pocket every now. Yeah, I know. I do. I think one thing though, leaning back to the question on on retaining our or sorry, on to attracting talent into our business, what we've said is, is we need to a understand where the business is going. And really understand the type of people that are on board with that vision as well. Right? And want to be connected to it. That's the fundamental and then look into all the things like from recruitment and and their life and then treat your people well, and then create that employee experience. And level up in that space. What are we doing now to keep people right, because it's the the, the we're talking about people leaving in droves. So they're on the bustle they've been hired previously. And yeah, quite connected. But the world at the moment is thrown cash around and salary around like no tomorrow. And you'd like you said the hybrid model might work for some and not others, and complete work from home might work for some and not others. And so there's all this sort of what can we do as businesses and organisations to ensure that our people are engaged and connected to the work they're doing? So that they do hang around, right, because it costs a lot of money to continuously get out there and recruit not to mention effort and energy?

Michelle Holland: 33:01

Well, this is the thing. I mean, we we often say that the cost of somebody leaving is actually six times their salary. Yeah, well, so if you have an employee that you pay $100,000, to the cost of them leaving a $600,000 to

Daniel Franco: 33:16

How did they come to that conclusion?

Michelle Holland: 33:18

through direct cost, like the productivity loss during the period of time of absence, the cost to direct cost to the business as far as opportunity cost, you know, our leaders are focused on the absent person rather than what they should be delivering. There's a number of different metrics that they use

Daniel Franco: 33:40

Not to mentioned, the time it takes to onboard a new person.

Michelle Holland: 33:42

Exactly right. So there's a huge loss of productivity for around about six months, when you lose a person, and then you onboard a new person. And it's not just that role, that loses the opportunity. Think about the HR team that's now having to recruit for that instead of building on the performance management or leadership capabilities. You think about the leader of that team who's now focused on replacing and doing interviews. Yeah, well, reading, so you know,

Daniel Franco: 34:09

it makes so much sense to put time and effort. I mean, I know it's not that easy, right?

Michelle Holland: 34:15

No, no, there's this is with where the great reality check comes into it. The reality is, is that if you are an organisation and you've got a particularly tight budget, so we see this a lot say in like our government, employee, client's if somebody down the road throws an extra 50 grand at your person, or 100, grand or whatever it might be. It's very hard to go I'm going to keep them by matching their salary. Yeah, they may still, that person may still choose to stay. They may say no, I'm not going to take that extra dollars. I'm quite happy where I am. But that would be a rare situation. I did actually hear one last night, I was out with a group of friends last night. And we were talking about all sorts of different things. And one of them was sharing a story about somebody he was working with, that had been offered a job in another organisation with a $3 million sign on bonus. Oh, wow. And he said, No, thanks. I'm happy where I am. Yeah, so that shows that Yeah. And he's like, is obviously a C suite role I your senior role in a very, you know, big, big organisation. very senior role. So, you know, the thing is, if you look at that and break it down, so why would he say no, he would say no, because he believes he's being paid fairly, for what he's doing. So it's, it's covering what he needs to cover? Yeah, yeah. So he's in a very privileged, he'd have to be in a privileged position. Yeah, financially. He also has an organisation which he really enjoys working with. He's also doing meaningful work. Yeah, he's also able to contribute at a higher level, right. So he's able to contribute his skill set into creating something bigger and better. And whatever

Daniel Franco: 36:12

Not to mention, is probably loving the work life balance,

Michelle Holland: 36:16

they could have work life balance, and whatever that means for him, right? Because that's different for everybody as well, like work life balance, for him might be 20 hours at work and not much at home. And then that's the balance he loves. Who knows, right? But the the, the right things are in place for him to say, No, I'm not going to accept that $3 million sign on bonus. Now, that's an unusual circumstance. But if we bring it down to just normal, you know, normal kind of salary levels. If I'm in an organisation, and I feel that I'm being paid well, for what I do, right, I feel it's a fairness thing. So salary is always about fairness. Do I feel that I'm being paid what I'm worth, for the job that I'm doing? And particularly in comparison, let's say to my peers in similar kind of places? Yeah. So that's one, we get that off the table first, right, that gets off the table, then, do I feel like I'm being appreciated for the contribution that I'm making? You know, valued? Okay, good. All right. Pop that over there? Do I feel like the people around me are people that I actually want to spend eight to 10 hours with a day? Yeah, yeah, no, they're pretty good. I'll pop that over there. Is my leader is somebody that cares about me and cares about my career? And is helping me to achieve great things? Yes. Fantastic. Why would I leave for $20,000? Or 50? Or $40,000? Right. If I've got all of those things, and I'm covered, yeah, then that becomes less, less important. Yeah. The other thing I often think is like, if you're an organisation, and you're having to pay 50 grand above what market value is, then that that sends off massive red flags for me, you can't get there are people you can't get the right people. I call that a toxic culture tax. Right? It's the culture, it's the tax, you have to pay, because your culture is generally toxic, or not great. So the only way to get people here is I have to pay an extra 50 grand for them. So I just I would be really careful about accepting the jobs that are throwing really big dollars above market. Right. So the market shifted for many roles. IT sector, the market has shifted 50 grand above. Yeah, so that's a different thing. Because everybody's paying, it is one thing, but if you know, everybody's paying 100 grand, and somebody offers you 150 for the same job, and it seems like a too good to be true. It's probably too good to be true.

Daniel Franco: 38:48

like one thing that's really interesting. And, you know, let's think of a government organisation, right, and then sort of the five level type with the C suite at level one or CEO level, while boards are at level one and C suite and at level two, senior management level three, general management level four, it it seems to me that majority of when we talk about companies leaving in droves, the majority of it is in that lower Echelon isn't and it's that lower and and because less leadership and behavioural capability in that space. They haven't been taught they've generally been promoted into roles because they're technically more advanced than anyone else in the team and their time or they've been around longer than anyone else at the time. And and so you see a lot of turnover in those spaces more so than you see up in the top higher into part of that pyramid. Is that what can organisations do to to like from a leadership so I think like the listener base of this podcast is probably more in that senior level. They're listening you now going, how do we stop the leaky bucket that you've heard you call it before? At that lower level? What can be done? And you know, generically, and there's not a one size fits all again, but what were some things that some leaders can think about in that low level?

Michelle Holland: 40:17

Yeah, I mean, the straightaway, I think if the the lower levels are leaving, and they're leaving in droves, then there is, there's a few things that may be missing that you might want to look at. So, yes, look at your market salaries. So are you paying market base? Are you paying fair? Yeah, so let's have a look at that first, right. So let's get that off the table. Let's look at some of those entitlement condition things like, you know, equity and equity in conditions of employment. So get those off the table first. So these are all your hygiene things. If you've gotten all of your hygiene stuff off the table, and you go, Yep, we're the same as every other organisation, we pay the same, you know, we have the same leave entitlements, we do some bonuses, here and there, whatever it might be. So all of those hygiene things are off the table, then I would be starting to look a little bit deeper about what are the barriers for people to stay? So why are they you know, there's reasons that they're leaving? Yeah. And if it's not to do with those hygiene things, it's then to do with more things like, is this an inclusive workplace? And I don't just mean inclusive from a Do I have a Reconciliation Action Plan? Or do I have a gender diversity committee in place? That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about inclusion? Those are part of it? Absolutely. But it's actually that true conversation? Am I Am I challenging ourselves to be more inclusive? Am I challenging ourselves to make sure that we've got a place where people can bring their full selves to work? Or am I still got that old methodology of you know, leave your shirt at the door? When you come to work? You know, there's no, there's no place for emotional baggage here. You know, you we still hear that today, even though that's a very 1950s kind of industrial mindset around that, but I still hear that today, talking with people and from all genders, not, you know, there's not one that comes from it's all genders. Yeah, speak that way. And even old age groups, I've even heard it from, you know, the younger generation as well, which just prizes the hell out of me. And doesn't, because where are the younger generation learning their leadership skills from the ones that have come before? So if there's, you know, those are the questions to ask, Are we an inclusive organisation? If not, why? Let's figure that out. Do we have good people management capability at that level, not leadership, not even talking about leadership, just people management, people, management skills in organisations are, are so poor, it just it actually baffles me that how poor they actually are, given the amount of money that organisations have spent on leadership. I think I pulled out a stat not long ago, where it was, organisations have spent over the last 12 months $60 billion on leadership development. And still when you go into many organisations, the people management is poor. We're not holding people accountable. We're not having conversations, we're talking about people, not to people, you know, all of those sort of things. Like, that's just poor people management skill. So let's have a look at that first. Right. And we go, okay, no, that's, that's pretty good. Let's get that off the table. So this is the way I would work through as far as doing an assessment for,

Daniel Franco: 43:45

like a position as hygiene factors. I think that's really good.

Michelle Holland: 43:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there is fundamental fundamentals. Yeah. So it's like, can I get all those things off the table that are you know, that we, we have a tendency to blame as well. And, and then that avoids us having the deeper conversation. So it's like, oh, they left because they got 50 grand somewhere else? It's like, is that the real reason, you know, is like, did they deserve their 50 grand? Because that's actually what the markets paying. So that's a problem for you, not them? You know, and not the other organisation?

Daniel Franco: 44:18

Did you ignore that person?

Michelle Holland: 44:19

Did you ignore that person? That's right. Do you have did they have bad leaders, leadership experience, you know, etc, etc. So it's like looking at all those levels and all those structural systems, you know, how am we making decisions here? You know, how often is that person pushed through new ideas and got knocked back? Yeah, you know, because we've said, Oh, no, that won't work around here or whatever the excuse, yeah.

Daniel Franco: 44:40

Well I'm putting you on the spot here. And I think you might, you may or may not have done the research on this. But the old Gallup statistic of 84% of people leaving because of poor leadership is Do you think that's still relevant in this day and age, given everything that's happening in in the world? Yes. So you still think leadership is the core reason why people would leave not so much salary another opportunity or connection and purpose and all the above.

Michelle Holland: 45:07

Yes. So leadership if we talk about leadership rather than leaders, or management, leadership, compasses, all of those things like direction, it encompasses governance and it compasses, you know, the ways we work and having having those deeper conversations and leadership absolutely is critical in businesses to keep your people there. One of the words for me that has just been floating around, I feel like I need to have a tattooed on my head. When I'm talking with people. It's clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity, like Brene Brown says, clear is kind, you know, but for me, it's this clarity, give clarity. If they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. Tell them, you know, if they don't know what they don't know, help them understand it. If you don't know, something, ask, you know, get clarity. There's too much assumptions that actually happen in organisations all the time, right at all levels of the business. So great leaders and great leadership, they use their curiosity skills. That's that's what they use more than probably anything. It's, I don't really understand why that's happening. So I'm going to ask why it's happening. I'm going to figure out why it's happening. I'm not going to do what when I tend to call action, distraction, you know, the action distraction. And we see this a lot in government, you know, sorry, government organisations, what we see this a lot in government organisations, it's like, oh, there's a person that did something wrong over there in that department. So let's write a policy. Yeah. It's like, no, get to the get why did that person do the wrong thing? Was it actually the wrong thing? Or actually, were they trying to do something outside of policy, because the policy is crappy, you know, so let's get underneath what's actually going on there. And if they did do the wrong thing, tackle that tackle the behaviour, don't create a policy, because that's not going to fix it. You know, policies only keep good people good. You know, it's like, if there's something going wrong, fix the going wrong.

Daniel Franco: 47:12

What you know, when you talk about clarity, though, there's some businesses that are going you know, high growth scaling quite quickly. Look, doesn't even need to be that even, they're just innovative and trying, you know, trying new things. And, and there's the old, you know, the old Steve Jobs, quote, hire great people and get them to tell you what to do is clarity, or can clarity be like, I've hired you, you tell me what we need, like, this is kind of where we want to go as a business. But I'm asking you to figure it out. Is that is that of clarity?

Michelle Holland: 47:42

Totally. Yeah. Cuz it's the it's about those expectations. My expectation is, I've hired you because you're an expert in this field. My expectation is that you will tell me and inform me and advise me,

Daniel Franco: 47:54

and then I hold you accountable to telling me exactly right.

Michelle Holland: 47:57

So I've hired you as a strategic advisor, then you need to give me strategic advice. I can't tell you what advice to give me. Yeah, it's Yeah, correct. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 48:09

And I think that's the I think that's the part is that what from a lot of the conversations we have, and I have with leaders is, I've got these great people in my team, but I still feel like I need to tell them what to do. Right? Because they are sitting and waiting for that direction, given their past history and the way they've been managed in the past. There's all this sort of comes up all this baggage and luggage of positions in their in their career. So how do we break that mould,

Michelle Holland: 48:35

that's a really good point as well, because there's, there's definitely something we come across all the time and cultures, not necessarily at this sort of higher level, sometimes still, unfortunately, but more at that sort of, you know, practitioner level, people have been so used to being told what to do, it feels very uncomfortable for them when you say these are your boundaries, deliver within those boundaries. And you don't tell them exactly what to do. That feels very uncomfortable for people. So you will, for those kinds of people are used to that more, say domineering management style, where they're told what to do on a daily basis. And this is how you do it and all the rest of it, they will struggle in that more open, collaborative leadership style. It's not to say you then flip back to Okay, now I just gotta tell them what to do. You got to be cleverer than that, you got to be better than that, you know, as a leader, you've got to be better than that. It's about helping transition them to a new way of working. So if they're not delivering on what you need them to deliver within the boundaries, it's about exploring that with them. You know, let's, let's figure out why this isn't working. You haven't been telling me what to do? Correct? Because that's not my job. So how do we get you to do your job so the you can do it and I don't have to. Because my job as a leader is this. Alright, so expectations, your job is this expectations, clarity around our relationship really important? Yeah, I'm not going to be telling you what to do and how to do it. Yeah. Because that's not what that's not where my best value is placed. My best value is placed in helping you to be able to achieve your results, the best way you can. And if you can't, then we have to have harder conversations. Yeah, you know, and it's really for me, it's always you invest as much as you can in the people that you have, because of will flip back to that $600,000. Right. But start again, before the six times their salary. It's really expensive to move somebody on. Yeah, it's a lot of emotional load and energy as well to do that. Because even though we go, you know, yeah, let's just get rid of them, because they're not working out. That's a human being, right, that's a person that you've been working with, that whether they frustrated you or not, it's still you have that I am actually ending their career right now. Yeah, with me, right. So they're gonna have to go out and find another job somewhere else, that might mean that they're out of work for a few weeks, and they can't pay their bills. That's a real thing. You know, and we have that as emotional load. So financial load, emotional load, beat time. So work with the people that you've got, and see if you can build them. If you can't, then we can make that hard decision. But also, you know, and this goes, but if this is maybe an HR manager now, make the decision. Where you go, I've done everything. Absolutely that I can do. Yeah. And I can say, you're not right for the organisation not right for this role. Let's part its friends. And I can sleep straight in bed at night. Yeah. You know, and that's the important thing. So if I'm still debating over whether it's the right thing, that's because I haven't put the work into that needs to happen yet. Yeah. So I, when I get to a point where it's like, it's not right for that person to be here anymore. It's because I've done the work that needs to happen to sort that out. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 52:20

You know, like, one thing that's going through my mind right now is, why don't why why haven't organisations shifted in this new way of thinking like, it's not even new way, it's not new way it's shifted. They're just this, this attitude of our will just keep employing people just keep, you know, trying to refill the bucket that's leaking. You know, there's statistics around like you said, and you just need to go on Google and look up the statistics, you know, six, spent 100,000 is going to cost you six, much, what six times as much. We also see statistics, for every dollar that you spend on your culture, it's seven times return. We know the statistics, but yet, companies are still choosing to bang their head against the wall. Why do you think that is what's so hard about making the shift? What is so hard about picking up the phone and saying, Actually, I don't know how to solve this problem alone, I'm going to need to seek external help, or I'm going to need the help within the organisation or whatever it might be. Why is it so hard to make that shift?

Michelle Holland: 53:21

Yeah, that's the $50 million question. Right? And if I had an easy answer to that, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. beach sipping cocktails somewhere. Billions of dollars from my book. But I think some of it and this is just my, you know, my, in my observations, and in my experience, and my opinion, probably, I think some of it is to do with, we teach people to think about the problem that they have to deal with today. Yeah, we don't think we don't teach them to be thinking about the problem that they might have to deal with, or that their organisation might have to deal with in five years time. So everybody's, not everybody, many people are just focusing on what they need to do today. So it's very task oriented, and becomes very much about if I'm having a problem, I need the quickest, fastest, easiest solution to fix it. And we constantly do that. I mean, you look at you know, you can just look at things like Facebook marketing and YouTube and all the rest of it. The How to videos are the ones that get the biggest views. Yeah, right. It's because we're all looking for a simple, easy fix to hard problems by step. Yeah. And look at the hard problem of of managing a business successfully. Which means you know, whatever you break success down, but let's pretend it's financially successful growth, delights the customer and provides a great environment for people to work. Right. Let's say that success for business That's not an easy thing to do. No, there is a, you know, there's a recipe to follow, definitely. But sometimes the ingredients aren't available. Or sometimes the ingredients look like they're a bit foreign. Or it might be that I don't quite know where to get it. And sometimes the the recipe actually changes midway through a pandemic, is like, oh, no, we didn't like that recipe anymore. Here's another recipe. And now you got to figure that out. So running a successful business, providing a great workplace environment is a daily thing. But it's a daily thing with the thinking of a 5 10 year horizon. Yeah. And that's not easy for a lot of people to get their heads into some. Some people just, they actually don't have the capability or the capacity to be able to think that way. Yet. And if you think about a lot of the time and organisations that people that we have a tendency to promote. I don't have any stats, but this is just my you know, based on my experience, and gut feel, the majority of CEOs would come from either an operations, accounting or technical background, right? Most I would say most CEOs come from that. They don't tend to come from a marketing background, they don't tend to come from a strategy background, they don't tend to come from an HR background. You know, so if you're thinking, because of that, we need to fix problems immediately. Yes, the immediate problems stuff. And when you fix problems, daily, Day, Day, Day Day on fixed xx, xx, the board thinks that you're great, because they look at you and go, Whoa, they're an achiever. Yeah, you know, and we, as a society, reward that style of leadership with that style of management as well. So we promote that style of management. So you get things you get shit done. Yeah, I'm going to promote you.

Daniel Franco: 56:54

So there's a real need for the visionaries. Right, is that that's what we're saying here. Someone that can look beyond the horizon.

Michelle Holland: 57:00

Yes, definitely. That in a practical and pragmatic way, yeah. So there's that that alignment between, I can look into the future, so I can see the direction. And I can plot a pathway towards that direction, that's actually going to bring people along for the ride. You know, and this isn't necessarily one person that has all of those skills. So probably the biggest thing I would say, if you're wanting to shift your culture as a CEO, and this is going to be hard. Know your limitations, right? Know your limitations on what you know, and what you don't know, what capacity you have, what capability you have, yeah, and bring people in that can actually support you. So go back to that Steve Jobs quote. Now, to me, like he that gets used for just really blatantly across the board. I believe what he was actually talking about was his the senior people that sit around him. Yeah, he's, he's strategic advisors. So I'm going to bring in a group of strategic advisors that actually work as one hole. So if I'm say, like, Steve Jobs was a real innovator, like he thinks big, like big thinking, disruption. Yeah. But he needed somebody that could actually translate that into people speaking. Yeah. Right. So he needed somebody to do that. He also needed the technical whiz kid to go, Alright, I'm going to turn that into a real thing. Yeah, that you want to do. He also needed the creative person, you know, Johnny Ives. Yeah, to go, let's make this beautiful. Because you want to be able to delight. Let's make this beautiful, right? So it's like, this is what we're gonna do, Steve? Yeah. Okay, great. Sell it, you can sell it. That's right. And then you need the great people that could sell totally.

Daniel Franco: 58:54

let's use a case study, I'm interested in picking your brain around case study. So I'm a new CEO, and of coming to a business and I'm looking at, you know, things with really fresh eyes, I can see great things are happening. But I can also see this ineffective practices that are going on and procedures and policies and all the above. But what I can see is silos in the business as well, right? There's different departments working differently now. And I'm looking at my leadership team, and I'm thinking about the direction of where we're going. And you know, it's not quite the direction I think that the shareholder needs to get the return that they want to go all the above right, everything that would go through CEOs, mind you know, I need more productivity, I need more growth. I need all the above. But this organisation is so big. Where like, where do you start? Where do I start? It always comes back to this question, I think. And it doesn't come back to the the answer that like what you said before as well. What is it that we actually want to like? Is it always about vision and purpose? What is your thoughts in this space?

Michelle Holland: 1:00:00

the new CEO wants to change or wants to shift culture to where it needs to? Yeah. So what they need to do is do an organisational restructuring. And just kidding.

Daniel Franco: 1:00:14

That's a bit drastic. What Yeah, that's what happens

Michelle Holland: 1:00:17

generally what they do, though, like, that's

Daniel Franco: 1:00:20

I've had my 100 days.

Michelle Holland: 1:00:22

That's right. So I'm being a bit facetious, sometimes and organisational shift is, is actually required. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:00:28

I'm gonna spat my water out.

Michelle Holland: 1:00:32

Yeah, the first thing that okay, so CEO, new CEO got your 100 days? Because this seems to be the new flavour of the month for the last, you know, five or six years? Yeah, we've got my 100 days, I need to present to the board what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, so I would be very much looking at what kind of people and capabilities do we need in this business? What do we actually want to deliver? What's our positioning in the marketplace? So all of those, you know, important business things? And looking at all of those important business things? What do we want our customer to say about us? What do we want, you know, to deliver what growth targets, we want to meet all of those things that are important, right, that strategic kind of vision? And then from that strategic vision, going, Okay, what kind of culture do I actually need, then to deliver on that? What would be right for this? So if I'm looking at it and saying, Alright, well, I want much more emphasis on growth. Yeah. Right. So that's, that's what we're going to be focusing on over the next five years is like quick, fast, dynamic growth, probably not an organised big, you know, big slow organisation that the CEOs joined, let's pretend they've joined a really dynamic organisation. So that's what I'm aiming for, then I need to make sure that I've got all my systems processes and practice or are able to cope with that. So we can make quick decisions. So I don't have blockers in place from the frontline delivering new things for my customer. Right. Many organisations don't allow their frontline staff to make decisions. But if I want to grow, I want to have rapid growth, I actually need to delegate decision making. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise, you end up with bottlenecks. And it slows everything down. Right? Yeah. So growth, quick, dynamic. So therefore, I need to have a high performing frontline staff need to have their capabilities and their skills also need to build trust, right. So our leadership, our people, management needs to be really focused on accountability, not dogmatic management, right. So accountability is going to be big. So if I'm driving that kind of cult, like performance, and I need to have that kind of culture, that culture is very different from an organisation which is alright, so I want it to be much more community focused, I really want us to be really focused on our community, let's say they're a not for profit organisation, really focused on service and delivery, safety culture. Yeah, absolutely. So whatever it might be, then represents differently at a frontline level, you know, so this is where I say, you have to have the vision, right? So you have to really be able to see 5 10 years in the future. But then you have to figure out how that translates to today's activity. And if today's activity doesn't suit that five years, then we need to go okay, what do I need to do differently? To get to that five years? Yeah. And it might be a capability shift, it might be that I actually need different people in place. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:03:42

I was gonna ask you on that, like, and we joke about the restructure, but let's say the CEO, previously was underperforming. Yeah. And had the structure in place that wasn't that worked for, you know, and then you've hired now this amazing, visionary superstar CEO that's turned organisations around in the past. Yeah. Has this particular structure in place? Yeah. Yeah, that person will the new CEO is going to look at the leadership team and say, well, you're, you're not at the level that I need you to be at from where you inherited this leadership. So do you see the restructure is actually a real thing?

Michelle Holland: 1:04:25

It? Absolutely could be? Yeah, yeah, totally. And that I never take that off the table. But what my suggestion is, is don't do that first, and then try and fit your organisation into a structure. Yeah You build your structure to suit the kind of organisation that you want? Yeah. So you always look at operating models first? Yes. That's the way it works, right. So you look at culture first, you look at outcomes first, or what are we trying to achieve here? And then we build our structure that's going to help us achieve a lot of the time we do that a bit is about because it's easier. It's much easier is easy to move around boxes on an organisational chart than it is to actually go. What do we want from our organisation? In the next five to 10 years? Yeah. And what are the barriers that are holding us to where we are right now? Because if there wasn't any barriers that already be there, yeah. Right, this is the thing. So you go, here's my vision, that's the direction I'm gonna go. Why aren't I there yet? Why are there you know, and this is where I get to the point where it's like this, these are really pragmatic conversations you have, there's no emotional stuff in this. It's really pragmatic. It's, that's where I want to be, I can't get there right now, because there are these seven barriers in the plant in the way. So being taking a really pragmatic approach, I need to move those seven barriers out of the way. And there's different ways of being able to do that. It's like shift the barrier, build bridge over the barrier, or this, put a hole through the barrier, whatever it is, you know, there's many, many different ways of tackling that barrier. And the barrier might be capability. It might be relationship, it might be structure, it might be decision making process. It might be there's so many different elements, because, you know, the way I look at an organisation, it's a living system. Yeah. So you press one thing, and something else moves over the other side, right. And this

Daniel Franco: 1:06:18

antagonist.

Michelle Holland: 1:06:19

Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel Franco: 1:06:21

So CEO like, yeah, and they, you would hope that they would have the experience, they would understand likely where they would go. But we often see that there is a few gaps. But one thing that I don't believe that they do take and you've talked about frontline? Well, I'm speaking generically, here is what I've seen as, as a, as a case study across multiple organisations is the frontline person is commonly forgotten about in some of these decisions, because it's very much about wanting to get my executive team, right, I need to get my I need to get my systems and processes in place so that the frontline workers can do the work that they need to do, right. And they're sort of they're always the afterthought. It's never thought about, if I am a frontline worker, and I'm listening to this podcast right now. And I'm thinking shit, this culture is not where it needs to be my latest shipping hardware, but I am so attached to what we're doing, like it's community focused, or it's a non for profit, or even if it's a government organisation that is doing some great stuff for the for the community, what can I do to manage up and improve culture from my level four level five position? Because I think like this works in two ways, isn't it? Yeah, it's not just this directly from the top down.

Michelle Holland: 1:07:43

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think the greatest successes I've had over the last 20 years of shifting cultures has come from a grounds well up. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. And because it's, it's about setting different level of expectations. So if I'm, if I'm a frontline worker, and I'm seeing what the customer needs, yeah, right, I see what the customer needs. And I know that I can't deliver for that customer, because of x, y, and Zed. My job, and how I can help improve the culture is identifying X, Y, and Zed and either reporting it to the people that need to fix it. Right. So that's one way report to the people that need to fix it. And or get involved in the fix as well. So I can actually ask to be involved in these fixes. Most organisations end up doing, you know, like working groups and all this sort of stuff, put your hand up to be on these working groups, even though it's chosen if the initiative absolutely, so if you're wanting to help the culture of your organisation, you need to be proactive about that. It's not it doesn't help the organization's culture to sit and bitch whinge about their organisations because anyone will help anyone doesn't help, doesn't help the customer. Internal language. It does. That's exactly right. And look, there's reality check is if you're not in an authority position, then you have to lead through influence and not everybody has that ability and skill to do that. But if you do have the desire to do it, then try, you know, ask a few more questions. Ask your leaders how you can get involved in doing more ask your team leader or your your senior manager, you know, if, if, if we were going to work on this culture together, what were what would be the things that you would want me to be doing differently, you know, to ask those questions, but what people can do is they can actually start, you know, say, let's say the culture is one where there is silos across the business, and and that impacts you as a frontline worker. occur, because you're like, well, if, you know, if we and assets spoke better together, then we get better outcomes. Yeah. Go and speak to assets. Yeah. Like it doesn't have to be leader to leader. I think this is what ends up happening with, with frontline workers they wait for their leaders.

Daniel Franco: 1:10:18

to speak to get directive is Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 1:10:20

whereas when I've seen it work really, really well is when the frontline workers, they just go and make relationships with the others. So I worked for an organisation and number a number of years ago in local government. And one of the things that I used to notice was, there was a lot of silos in the senior leadership, and they're like, oh, you can't work together, not collaborating, and blah, blah, blah. And then I'd go and speak to the frontline workers like the carpenters and the people, the civil workers and whatnot. And I'd go, you know, one of the barriers and the leg all these bloody people don't talk to each other. And I'd go, Well, what do you do to fix that? And they're like, are weird mates with the assets, guys, so we all go out to beers on a Friday night, and we just chat about things that need to get done. And then we go, and we figure this stuff out. And they go and talk to their boss, and we go and talk to our boss, and we just get it done. And I'm like, look at that for work around one

Daniel Franco: 1:11:21

It solves it? Well,

Michelle Holland: 1:11:22

I was gonna say, is that nicer environments kind of approach in Australia as well. But, you know, that was one way that they went, Okay, well, we need to be able to deliver for our customer. Yeah. And things aren't getting done. Because it looks like the two people at the top are just, they're not talking to each other. They're using too many processes are getting in the way, whatever. But actually, if we just chat to each other, we help each other out, then we can actually get things done.

Daniel Franco: 1:11:47

It's amazing what communication does right?

Michelle Holland: 1:11:49

this is the thing is like just go talk to these people check them out for a coffee or a beer or whatever. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:11:54

And I want to add to that point, like, like I grew up and came through the ranks, I started off my career in a forklift, right. So I've definitely worked my way up the ranks. And one thing that I think always worked for me was when trying to manage up was I just tried to understand the strategy and vision of the business, and then did everything that matched that. And so I kind of, and then, and so no one ever really argued with me about what I was doing was like, Well, hang on, isn't this the strategy? I'm working towards that? And then kind of went, Oh, yeah. So you can actually use to talk about influence and people not having the typical type of influence, you can create influence for yourself. If you're doing too What if you're doing what the management team and strategy and the board and everyone wants you to do? Like, that's how you create influence. So you don't create influence by telling people. No, you got to do this. And you got to do that it's influence is about connecting yourself to the vision and doing everything in your power to make sure that the company hits that vision. Right.

Michelle Holland: 1:12:51

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, a lesson for the leaders listening to this as well is that go and speak to your frontline staff and ask them questions, because I gotta say, like, some of the best ideas that I've experienced come from frontline work, because they see it, of course, and they give a damn as well because they're the ones that are right in front of the customer. So they give a damn Yeah, go and see them, you know, and I think about what frustrates me nothing, oh my god. Probably nothing frustrates me more in organisations, then undermining and undervaluing your frontline staff, and making assumptions about who they are or what they can do and what they can't do. Because I think about like, my family background is all blue collar. Yeah, all blue collar. Dad's a mechanic my brother's a mechanic, you know, my partner's Well, he's a music educator, but he's also been done, you know, blue collar work and all the rest of it forklift stuff. Three of the smartest people I know. Yeah. Right. And I go to them all the time for advice, like and I'm working at this senior executive level and I go to them for advice. Yeah. All the time because of the smartest people I know. So it's

Daniel Franco: 1:14:05

like in this smart a typically around the simplicity, right? Because we can obviously overcomplicate them.

Michelle Holland: 1:14:12

relationships, relationships, smarts, right? They've got relationship smart Street, smart street smarts, that's it. They've got the this is what the customer needs, smarts, the system smarts as well. Like, it's like this system doesn't work. It's just it's ridiculous. So why did they put that in place? They you know, up to the level they put the system in place. Doesn't make any sense. Right. I remember talking with I think it was Pete That was saying he he was working in this I won't mention the company name but he was working in this organisation that Do you know, warehousing and stuff, and they had to do this scanning. And he said, so he walked in and put the put his stuff away in the lunch room, check in and then have to walk all the way past everything that he was going to scan to the other side of the warehouse to pick up the scanning items to come all the way back. It's like 10 minutes wasted time. Why isn't the scanning thing right next to the clock in thing.

Daniel Franco: 1:15:11

for clarity, peace, your partner, my

Michelle Holland: 1:15:12

partner? Yes, yes. So just that kind of stuff is like just simple process improvements, efficiency gains, if you want to save money in your business, go and speak to your frontline workers about how you can save money in your business.

Daniel Franco: 1:15:26

I want to ask one last question before we start to round up the podcast. And it was about so we've talked about the CEO, we've talked about the frontline workers. But we're not we're discounting that we are discounting the executive and senior management team, what we have discounted in this conversation so far, new CEO comes in, right? Or even the CEO in place isn't, isn't providing clarity, isn't providing the accountability that we need, what can we do as a chief people officer or as a CEO, or a CFO? You know, all the other C suite names that come to mind? What can we do in that, in our role to manage up and help our CEO, especially like, from a cultural point of view, it's definitely it's definitely led, or in the front of the mind of this chief people officer, right? Or the head of people in culture or head of HR, whatever that role is? It's definitely front of mind for them. How do they get their CEO? To see what they see, given that there are different lens? Yeah.

Michelle Holland: 1:16:32

So I think, interestingly, what I find is, the expectation is, is that culture sits with people and culture. They've put it in the name, right? Yeah. Unfortunately, I think what ends up happening with this kind of conversation is it becomes very narrow, instead of broad, whereas when I see culture sitting with, say, a COO, like a chief operations officer, they tend to have more ability to have broader conversations around culture. So my suggestion is to if it's in the HR person's mindset, they need to get really good at speaking business speak. Yeah, not people speak. Yeah. So come at it from a business point of view. Because my firm belief is culture is not just about people, culture is about the DNA of the business, how we how we function as a successful efficient business. And one of the outcomes of that is then the experience that people have at work. Yeah, right. So that's the that's

Daniel Franco: 1:17:44

what I'm talking about 16 signatures to get something over the line is what people then complain about. And to the negative effect of the culture, right, like, exactly

Michelle Holland: 1:17:54

right. And then when, you know, people feel like they're not able to produce or provide their a valued contribution to the business, they get frustrated and bored. And you know, what happens when people are frustrated and bored, they have arguments with others, and then you end up with this, like weird stuff that goes on. And it's like, I don't like them and that like that. personality conflict. Yeah. All this sort of business, you know, happens, but there's always as a result of something else. So whoever is talking culture right now, and they want to go and speak to their CEO, speak to the CEO and the language that they understand.

Daniel Franco: 1:18:32

Talk about the seven times return.

Michelle Holland: 1:18:36

Right? If that's important to them, right. So it would be I mean,

Daniel Franco: 1:18:39

CEOs result is the return.

Michelle Holland: 1:18:42

It could be yes, yeah. It could be because everybody's different, right? And every CEO is different. So one of the questions I always ask to people is, what's important to you, CEO? So,

Daniel Franco: 1:18:53

we're gonna tell you work in any sort of influences. From the other person's perspective.

Michelle Holland: 1:18:58

Yeah, yeah. Cuz, I mean, I was talking with somebody, and not long ago, and I said that what's important to your CEO, what's, you know, what's the thing that they say is keeping them up at night, and it was about the community. So the the impact they're having on the community, that was their biggest thing. So coming out that person with numbers and crunching wouldn't work coming at them with the impact that this has on the community and how you could actually have a better and more positive impact on the community by doing X, Y and Zed that's going to that's gonna speak their language, right? So understand their language, if they are a numbers crunch in kind of person, going with the numbers, yeah, lead with the numbers and then flow it from somewhere else. These are basic influencing skills, right? So it's really speak the language of the other person. But I think that, for me is one of those critical skills and capabilities that isn't necessarily as common in organisations. So I would hope it would be Yeah. Even in the roles that you would think, have those sort of like, cultural influence thing kind of skills, then they're not all that common in organisations like

Daniel Franco: 1:20:14

100%. Agree. Now, I want to finish off with one last question. And it's the, I guess it's probably a question around around that, that Chief People Officer or CIO is definitely, I mean, look, it definitely can come from the point of view of anyone within an organisation. But particularly about trying to get a business case over the line or get some work over the line or trying to put it forward in a way and have influence and get this piece of work, which, you know, could be really valuable. And so there's this common thread that I'm head of people and culture, I'm head of operations or whatever it might be there for, I should have all the answers and I shouldn't I should, I should definitely be the person that is coming up with this programme or this, or delivering on the actions or holding people accountable and all the above, but I'm so busy, that I just don't have the time and headspace to put that in. So I pick up the phone, and I call synergy IQ I call it consultancy, to [inaudible audio] use us as an example, synergy IQ and Michelle Holland. This is what Daniel Franco answers on the other end and says, and we're on the phone with this person, and we go look, I know what needs to be done. I know that this culture needs a little bit of a revamp and a bit of an upgrade and rethinking process. And we've got slight engagement issues. I've got a great team. But I don't have the capacity, or I don't have the cape or may not have the capability to deliver on these outcomes. What can they expect from working with someone like yourself who's worked globally? And then all these amazing things? And you know, you've written your books, what does it look like when you walk into a room? And you sit down with the leadership team and you go, here we go, where we're going to start this process? What is the expectation? Because it's some it's an unknown territory to too many, too. And it's all and it can be a little bit of an ego hit sometimes like because I I will feel like I should know, you should know, like, I should be able to do it and put the pressure on myself. And and there is help out there. Yes, I think that's really critical. Because often we see it is that culture and engagement gets pushed to the side. Because there is this element of I feel like this is something that we should do as an internal person within this business. And don't realise that there is outside help, who are expertise in helping them do their role and getting the outcomes that they're desire? Because isn't about outcomes, right? Yes,

Michelle Holland: 1:22:50

yes. I always find it quite interesting. Because if you think about getting any other kind of expertise, so if I'm in a business and my pipes burst, I'm not going to go, oh, man, I should do this, because it's my business. I should just go and fix the pipe. No, you call a plumber. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:23:07

right. marketing is another example.

Michelle Holland: 1:23:11

absolutely everything. PR agent totally, totally accountants, you know, you don't think twice about going, oh, we need to audit our business or it's my business. And you know, I've done an MBA, so I should be able to do the audit, you know, you get an auditor in to do the, you get the expert in to do it. And this, I think comes back to that recognition of capability and capacity. And sometimes it's capability and capacity that you don't have to actually do what you want to do. So sometimes we do need to call in experts for that, and even the expertise to help us get better at what we want. So if it's like, okay, I'm people and culture, Director cultures in my title. Sometimes there can be shame around not understanding that stuff as well. And it's like, well, the CEO relies on me, but I don't really know what to do. So we've kind of put in a few leadership programmes, and we're doing some stuff that we think is, is cultural. But they don't have that depth of understanding of the mechanisms that sit around what culture is, and that full, holistic look at it. There can be some shame around those things. And that's where their ego gets involved in. And it is hard. So the any level of the organisation, the biggest barrier to change is going to be your ego. Yeah, that's always going to be it. So that's part of the personal work to do that. As far as when you call synergy IQ, let's say so I can only talk from our perspective on how we work is we we focus on co creation. So we're not coming in and saying we know everything about everything and get out of the way, and we'll fix your culture for you. It's actually we're experts in how culture functions in businesses, how businesses function in an effective or not effective way. We're experts in how to navigate through that complexity, we're experts in how you enable a change within your business. I'm not an expert in accounting firms. I'm not an expert in engineering, I'm not an expert in asset management, I'm not an expert in space design, or whatever your business happens to be. You're that expert. So therefore, it is your responsibility to shift your culture. And when you've got a specialist that can help guide you on what to do, then that actually becomes doable. Yeah,

Daniel Franco: 1:25:46

less overwhelming,

Michelle Holland: 1:25:47

less overwhelming. That's right, because it can break it down step by step. And although culture is it's an adaptive, complex kind of system, right, so there's no start here and end here approach to culture transformation. It's not as what we call an evolution, evolution. But what we do is we've been able to break it down into stages. So we know that the first stage is understanding where to, like, where are we going? So plotted out, where are we plotting the map to? Yeah. And that really becomes down to your expert asking a lot of courageous and, and curious inquiry questions. And getting real deep with somebody can be uncomfortable, can be very uncomfortable. Yes. Because sometimes you just don't know. You don't know what you don't know. And, and we will, we will challenge as well. You know, it's like, why do you want to do this? Or because we think we should know? Okay, let's go deeper. Why do we Why do you want to do that? Because law. All right. Why do why is that important? Because of so we always do a lot of digging, digging, digging underneath to really get to the nuts and bolts of why are we actually doing this? Because without the why you don't get the will. Yeah, and you got to have a lot of will in culture shift, right. So that's our first step always. So where are we now our second step that we look at is sorry, where are we going is our first step, the next step is where are we now. So I always use the analogy of if I'm going to, if I'm going to get in the car and travel somewhere, it's useful to know where I want to go. Because if I want to go to Sydney, then I'll be able to go okay, there's the map to get to Sydney. But to be able to do that, I need to know where I'm starting from to because Google needs its starting point and the destination, right? Culture is exactly the same, you need a starting point and a destination. So destination we always start with first because where are we going? Then? Where are we right now? Because where are we at right now helps us go? What strengths can we leverage? What are the things we're really great at right now that we want to keep embedded within our culture? And then what are the things that we would like to morph in our culture? And then what are the things we want to remove from our culture, you know, so we can do it in that way. So it's not just this is where it's like culture change, I feel uncomfortable about that terminology, because you're not going from one thing to the other, you're actually going keep that, change that little bit more for this one, and then get rid of that.

Daniel Franco: 1:28:24

I think you use the word complexity. And like, that is one thing that you know, the external person and synergy IQ in particular offer is that we are experts in complexity, we are experts in thinking about things differently. I was using a scenario the other day, and as someone said to me, I said to them, like thinking about a hot dog, right, I know, this is such a silly example. But I, the way my brain works, I always go to food. So think about a hot dog. And we got this hotdog and we got this beautiful bun and then we got this, you know, the actual sausage in the middle, then we got the onions on top. And then we got this nice layer of mustard on top again, and and so when we look at this hotdog, we don't just look at those four items of the bun and the sausage and the onions and, and the mustard, we look at the mustard and go, Well what does it take to create the mustard, we need a mustard seed we gotta order that from India we take we got the winter, the Tumeric that also comes from India, we've got to think about the breaking down of every little bit. So we pull it apart, and then pull it all back together again, and we help you understand foundationally and fundamentally where what the root cause is, I think like it's something I've seen you do in a lot of your businesses. And sorry, in a lot of the work that you work with in businesses, so is that real complexity? thinking differently about the actual scenario?

Michelle Holland: 1:29:41

I think that I mean, that's a very that's a cool metaphor. Yeah. The metaphor King. That food that comes up with some good metaphor. So that's quite a good one because I think the other thing I would say then is so if your business is that hot dog and you like that mustard, you You don't have to worry about the seeds coming from India. Yeah. Because we'll we'll figure that out. Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah, okay, those seeds are there. And they need to come from India. Yeah. Like, we'll help you figure that out. You don't need to know all that stuff. But if you don't like mustard and you want sauce instead, then we go, Okay, that's cool. We can get rid of the mustard and put tomato sauce on there, or ketchup as I would say, North American. Lunchtime. For hotdogs, I think just finishing off where we would go. So we want the starting point. Right, we want the destination. But we also want to then have a roadmap to get there. Yeah. So this is where we would come in and go, Where are we going? Where are we right now? What's the roadmap to get to where we want to go? And then what are the initiatives that sit alongside of that, and help you prioritise those initiatives? Because the 10, then hold accountable. That's right, and then hold accountable to those initiatives. Because the tendency is that we want to do everything, because we go, Oh, my God, look at all those gaps. And we want to change this, and we want to change that. And bla bla bla, it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. Yeah. So we help break that down into doable pieces, like actionable pieces. And, and look just react, great reality check. Again, that's not going to happen in a one day or two day workshop, that is an investment of time, energy and effort over a period of time. So I just want to be really clear about that. Because, you know, sometimes we'll have people go, can you just come in and run a culture workshop for us? And we're like, yeah, we can. But what are you trying to achieve with that? It's like, is it just a bit of like, start the conversation? Cool, we can do that totally can do that. But that won't do anything to shift your culture? Nothing? No, it won't, it might start a conversation with you do nothing else you might don't do that. Like that would be my other suggestion with a CEO or a leader. If you're not going to invest the time, energy and effort over probably the next two to three years minimum in your culture. And that doesn't mean that you're investing that with a consultant, you might be investing six to 12 months with a, you know, a specialist. And then the rest of the time is your energy effort. Yeah, etcetera. But if you're not willing to put that energy and effort into it, then you'll you'll just just keep the results you've got now.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:16

Yeah, that's right. You can never shift the dial Yeah,

Michelle Holland: 1:32:20

it is what it is.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:21

Excellent. Look, thank you so much for your time. Today, Michelle, and taking time out of your very, very busy schedule to come and talk to us here at the creating synergy podcast. I know that you're a big, big lover, and I'm a big fan. You've been on a few times, you have to be

Michelle Holland: 1:32:40

podcast managers. Awesome. Yeah.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:45

The reason real reason why you're here. I know you're very active on social media on LinkedIn and all the above. So Michelle, T holland Michelle,

Michelle Holland: 1:32:55

Michelle Holland on LinkedIn.

Daniel Franco: 1:32:57

Yeah, yeah. You also do a lot of speaking gigs, as well. Yeah.

Michelle Holland: 1:33:01

So you can access my speaker's page from synergy. iq.com.au or my website, which is Michelle T holland.com. A All my speakers stuff is on there. My books are on there. Everything

Daniel Franco: 1:33:13

like keynotes and

Michelle Holland: 1:33:15

yep, do keynotes. Do conferences, do lunch and learns.

Daniel Franco: 1:33:20

And in particular, like culture change complexity.

Michelle Holland: 1:33:23

Most of the time, it's about culture. Most of the time is either culture and or leadership. So I kind of blend

Daniel Franco: 1:33:30

a lot on the workforce stuff.

Michelle Holland: 1:33:31

I do some workforce as well. But yeah, that's pretty much what everyone somebody wants to talk,

Daniel Franco: 1:33:37

I'm using all the buzzwords, resistance to change all the above.

Michelle Holland: 1:33:41

If you haven't noticed, I can talk pretty much underwater with a mouthful of marbles. So yeah, if you need a speaker, I can do that.

Daniel Franco: 1:33:49

So check Michelle, out at Michelle Holland on LinkedIn. You just follow her she's very, very active.

Michelle Holland: 1:33:55

Yeah, please do connect. Because I do connect with probably 95% of the people that connect with me. I'm not somebody that goes Oh, no, you don't live in South Australia. So I'm connecting, or whatever. I connect with most people. It's really only you know, the quite blatantly obvious spammers that I don't connect with.

Daniel Franco: 1:34:16

I'm a Business Growth expert.

Michelle Holland: 1:34:18

Yeah, that's where I can help you build your Oh God. Here we go.

Daniel Franco: 1:34:21

I get them every day. Yes. Very good. Thank you very much. And we'll catch you next time. All right, thank you very much. Cheers. Bye. Bye. Good one. Thanks for listening to the podcast though. You can check out the show notes if there was anything of interest to you and find out more about us at Synergy iq.com.au I am going to ask though, if you did like the podcast, it would absolutely mean the world to me if you could subscribe, rate and review. And if you didn't like it, that's alright too. There's no need to do anything. Take care guys. All the best