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Creating Synergy Podcast

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Ep. 8 – Courageous Conversations in the Workplace – Creating a Culture of Feedback and Empathy – with Ally Nitschke

Intro:

Welcome to Creating Synergy where we explore what it takes to transform, whether you are transforming yourself, your team, your business, or your community. We’ll connect you with insightful and challenging leaders who share their stories of successful transformations to give you practical ideas for your own journey. Join us for another insightful episode of Creating Synergy.

Daniel Franco 

So welcome to Creating Synergy. Today we’ve got Ally Nitschke. Welcome, Ally.

Ally Nitschke 

Thank you.

Daniel Franco 

So, Ally, just a bit of background about Ally: She is a leadership coach and educator facilitator and a speaker, and she has many, many years in change management and leadership. So, while most people instinctively avoid confrontation, Ally jumps right into it, and she believes that confrontation and courageous conversations are central to getting results. She’s worked with some of SA’s iconic organizations, and she knows what it’s like to lead teams of over 120 people. She brings her expertise through tough conversations. She brings it right to the forefront creating a culture of feedback, which is really important. Ally teaches people how to have courageous conversations and works with organizations to create courageous leaders. And you’re on a mission Ally, I hear. You’re on a mission to change the way we perceive tough conversations. So can you go into a little bit more about that?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. And I am on a bit of a mission to change the way that we talk at work. So, as you mentioned, courageous conversations are totally my jam. I think we don’t have enough of them. I don’t think we are good enough at them. And I think if we can start mastering and cultivating the art of courageous conversations, then we can make some really impactful changes in the workplace in our own lives, to the way that we interact with our teams and the way that the team performs. So yes, I’m absolutely on a mission to get courageous conversations out there and mainstream.

Daniel Franco 

So what’s your actual definition of a courageous conversation?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, really good question. So most people think that a courageous conversation is courageous, is a conversation that comes about from performance management. And that’s certainly one part of it. But there’s also the other side of a courageous conversation, which is perhaps a little bit less knowing. And that’s around, actually leaning into that discomfort. So a courageous conversation could be asking for a promotion, a courageous conversation could be standing up when you see something in the workplace that you don’t agree with. It’s any of those conversations where you feel a little bit achy on the inside, it makes you feel a little bit nervous. It’s not just a natural conversation. It’s something where you actually have to take, take a bit of a plan in place and talk about it.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah. I like the bit about walking past and actually standing up but there’s a quote by a general in the army and he said: “The standard you walk past is the standard you accept”. And I reckon that’s one that stuck with me for so long.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, I think that’s a really great quote. And it is by General around the standard that you will pass. And I think it’s so true in the workplace. And it’s often disguised as the statement, or we’ve always done it that way, or the way that we do things here. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be around a process, but it could actually be a bit of a culture thing, as well. And courageous conversations really digs into “Yeah, perhaps you have always done it that way. But we’re not that way anymore, or “we need to move and evolve and courageous conversations address a lot of those issues”.

Daniel Franco 

So why are they so difficult, though, like, you’re on a mission to change people, and the way they think, and the way they perceive conversations, and I know you, you delve a lot into Brené’s work…

Ally Nitschke 

I love Brené

Daniel Franco 

And dove into Kim Scott’s work in Radical Candor. And there are some really good tools out there to build yourself and create courageous conversation, become better crucial and courageous conversations. But it’s one of those things that, I don’t know. You have to keep on trying and trying and trying again to get better at it. Is that right? Or is it? Because that’s the bit it always comes down to? You come the time that you actually have to have one, you must, you know, start backing away.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. So what I think it actually comes down to it, or what I teach that it comes down to, is that people we go into this fight flight or freeze mode. So we feel something that’s a little bit uncomfortable, a courageous conversation, and we get scared or, you know, go into fight or flight triggers from our amygdala. And we get a bit of dum dum brain, which means we can’t think about what it is that we need to be talking about, which then only feeds and fuels the fight-flight or freeze response. And what I like to do is actually break that down. So before we’ve even had any conversation, we’ve got this story or the head junk that we keep telling ourselves. So the stories that we tell ourselves and Brené talks about this a lot. There’s also a nutritionist here in Australia, Dr Libby, she talks a lot about this around the stories that we tell ourselves. And when it comes to a courageous conversation, what happens is we start telling ourselves a story about a scenario that we’ve conjured up in our head. And then we respond based on the imaginative story that we’ve made. So, say you and I were having a having to have a tough conversation. In my mind, I’ve already played out the scenario. And I’ve also conjured up your response and whether it’s, you know, most people are scared of someone crying. Hopefully, you don’t cry me. But if you do, you know, I’ve already responded and reacted based on what I think is gonna happen in the situation, which then makes me scared to have the conversation because I don’t want to go through that story, even though it’s all fictional. So getting on top of your own head junk and getting really clear on what is fact and what is stories is the first step to unpacking a courageous conversation and being able to be more effective at having them. So, recognizing the stories.

Ally Nitschke 

That’s a whole nother podcast. Because first and foremost, you need to understand the triggers that send you into that spiral, I guess, of when you start thinking about all the different scenarios. How do you stop yourself from getting to that point?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I think the first thing is to actually recognize it. So one of my favourite questions to ask and one of the questions that I talked about with my clients is, you know, the, this, the truth facts yourself. So is that true? Ask yourself question when you’re about to have a conversation with someone or you can hear your internal monologue being like, oh, they’re just such and such and such. They’re lazy, they’re not trying their best effort, and then go, well, is that true? Which then pauses all of that thought pattern, it’s getting out of control, and then you can also start looking for Okay, evidence. Is it true? Well, I haven’t actually seen it and do they do it every time? I know there’s been times where they haven’t done that. And are they always like this? No, they’re not always like that. So, “is that true” is a good self-coaching question, or get yourself on the right track.

Daniel Franco 

So how much do you…is that aligned with the question that Brené asked everyone is “Do you believe that this person is giving their best”?

Ally Nitschke 

The best effort. Is it aligned with it? I think it’s a little bit different. So, that line is around what you believe to be someone else’s behaviours or attitude or whatever it happens to be. [inaudible]

Daniel Franco 

Is it the story that you’re telling yourself though? Around their behaviours? And the way they would act in the way that they would perceive, the way what you’re gonna say?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, so a lot of it is the stories that you’re telling yourself about the situation. So it could be, they always try to make me feel bad. Well, is that true? Do you always feel bad? Or are you always feeling put down? Or are they always running late? You know, that type of thing. So that is it true the stuff that you’re telling yourself?

Daniel Franco 

Is that true? [inaudible]

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. Is it true? And it’s so good, and I use it all the time. Even you know, just in everyday life, like, you start to wonder, your mind starts to wander and then you go hang on a minute, is that true? And you start looking for better answers to your question.

Daniel Franco 

With all the people that you work within helping them have conversa…with the leaders that you work within helping them have courageous conversations with their people, does anyone ever come to you? I’m really curious about this. Has anyone ever come to you and say, I need help having a courageous positive conversation? Like I need, I don’t know how to provide good feedback. Is that something that you get asked about? Because the negative stuff, you know, we kind of, we all need some help with that. But the positive stuff, I think, is if not more powerful.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, sure. So certainly, not so much around how do I do it as a courageous conversation that the positive creative conversation stuff is how do I ask for a promotion? Or how do I demonstrate that I’ve, I’ve got these skills and how do I talk to my boss about that or the next steps, but certainly around giving feedback and giving effective feedback, you know, it’s really easy to be like, Oh, good job, or we did really well. Well done team, which is lovely. Like it’s really nice to acknowledge, you know, people that have done good work and it’s really nice to acknowledge teams that are performing well. But unless you can be specific around what it is and that’s where I do a lot of the work with my clients is getting specific around what it is because there’s no good me saying are really well done. Really well done what? Like really well done sitting there, really well done in the Tea Room earlier today, really well done last week, but being able to specify all the pieces of work that you put together for the marketing team for the board meeting. I love the way that you articulated these five paragraphs and that was really punchy. Can we do more of that? And then immediately you’re like, Ah, okay, this is specifically what was really good. I mean, just reproduce that as opposed to a broad really well done that you are like [inaudible].

Daniel Franco 

So clarity is key here.

Ally Nitschke 

Clarity is key.

Daniel Franco 

The thing is…courageous conversation. Okay, I’ll keep coming back to this because it’s ridiculously hard. No matter how many times you’ve had to have conversations and I get that it’s a muscle right, you build the strength and you become better. How do people, what, what are some of the pitfalls that you see? A lot, happens a lot with some of the people you work with, where some of their stumbling blocks when approaching this conversation?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, I think the first one is the biggest stumbling block and you would come across this as well as Synergy IQ is the people go performance management I’m going to call HR, rather than taking any sort of responsibility for themselves. So, I think the first thing is you actually have to recognize that as leaders, part of your job, courageous conversations is 100% your duty or your duty of care for your people. And then the next one’s definitely the stories that you keep telling yourself, you know, get a handle on those. And then the third thing is actually having to lean into it. So, courageous conversations, yes, they 100% feel uncomfortable. That’s kind of the point. But recognizing that that’s why you’re feeling uncomfortable, and then being able to unpack the stories and take responsibility for yourself. You need to have courageous conversations. If you want any kind of progress with your team, the more courageous that you are, and the more frequently that you’re having these conversations, a few things you can solve a lot of your problems. So you might be having performance management issues, but the person that you’re having performance management issues with your staff member, they might not have the self-awareness to know that that’s what it is. So they could be completely naive to it or you haven’t been clear enough in explaining what the expectations are. So, using courageous conversations that way to get clear on where you stand, you know, drawing a line in the sand. And it also gives you a lot more headspace as well, instead of, you know, doing this half performance management and just the, they should know that it’s their job, or they should know better. How about if they don’t actually know better, perhaps they are, Brené Brown, giving it their very best effort and they just don’t know any better. So, you’re wasting a lot of time and a lot of energy, trying to manage someone, but you haven’t actually had a conversation with them about what it is and most people want to do the right thing.

Daniel Franco 

They do. How much of stopping people from having courageous conversations is based on their thoughts on how that person would react?

Ally Nitschke 

98%.

Daniel Franco 

It would be, wouldn’t it? Quite high. I mean, even you see it in children, I guess they, they come out and say it and my daughter says quite a bit as I don’t want to say anything for that person because I don’t, they might get angry at me. So, I guess the question to this is how much is it a skill? How much of a skill is it for the person receiving feedback as opposed to the person giving feedback?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, when you’re on the receiving end of courageous conversations, it’s interesting that you say that. So I do some work with teams and I’m a big, big fan of prevention, rather than the cure for courageous conversation. So, I think one of the best ways that we can prevent teams from spiralling down that sort of toxic workplace is by having regular feedback. And I’m talking feedback sort of as close to the incident as possible before it gets to an escalated situation of courageous conversations. And I think what people on the receiving end need to be open to, and this will only work if you’ve built the trust. I know Brené has got a beautiful piece of work around the braving inventory, so you know, coming up with the boundaries and going through that whole process with your team to build the culture within the team first and…

Daniel Franco 

Sorry, just touch on the boundaries piece [inaudible].

Ally Nitschke 

The boundaries piece. So, Brené Brown has got an activity that you do. It’s in her Dare to Lead book and it’s called the Braving Inventory. And one of my most favourite parts, and I think this is where a lot of courageous conversations issues come from, is where she talks about boundaries. So, quite often, and this is probably more personal life than work-life is we’ll get upset by something that someone says or does to us. And it happens, you know, it happens all the time you walk away from the situation, and 20 meters away, you’re like, “ah, I could have I could have said this, and I’ve got these five really great comebacks And what about this and this point and this point”, but you didn’t ever say it because you weren’t thinking of it at the time. But the reason we don’t recognize it at the time and have the ability to have those conversations is we haven’t realized that that person has crossed the boundary of us.

Ally Nitschke 

Is pretty powerful stuff. So, when you actually start recognizing what your own personal boundaries are, and it could be as simple as another Brené thing, love her work, is “that’s not okay with me” or “that’s not okay”. Then you can sort of start recognizing what it is that triggers your own response to when people cross your boundaries.

Daniel Franco 

Pretty powerful.

Daniel Franco 

Yes, that’s awesome.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, it’s good.

Daniel Franco 

You mentioned this is not, this is more for home life. All right, I’m gonna use me as an example. I’ll get vulnerable here as according to Brené, but if I’m in a job in a work environment, I should say, if I’m in my work environment, and I required to have a courageous conversation with someone, I find the ability to step up and keep my emotions in check, quite good. I can do that. But at home, it’s completely different. Why is that? Why is there such a difference between at home and in the work environment?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, really good question. So this is why I don’t do courageous conversations at home. I’m not a psychologist to start with, but there’s so much extra emotion, baggage, etc, etc. So, in work, we maintain a slight level of professionalism, we build relationships based on what we want to share, you know, it’s like the highlight reel of your career, the highlight reel, if your Instagram people at work really only know what you’ve told them or what they’ve learned in person. So, you can be really vulnerable and be open to those kinds of things. Or many people sort of keep their hat on, put their professional face on during work hours. So, at work, you’re kind of this certain persona, and you’ve got relationships built at a particular level, based on both having like a tiny little looking-glasses kind of person that you really are. At home, all the gloves are off. So you do get to have you know, you’ve got the vulnerability, there’s the safety net, you know, I don’t know about your kids or your wife, but you kind of in it, you know [inaudible].

Ally Nitschke 

No, gosh. Gosh, no, my husband and I were having a discussion the other day, and it was getting pretty heated and he just goes “don’t courageous conversations me”. I’m like, well, it’s kind of what we’re doing. We’re having a courageous conversation. So why are the stakes higher at home? I think it’s because you’ve got more invested. But you’ve also got less to hide. So, you can show the vulnerability. You’ve got kids as well. You know, you kids hold it together all day at school. And they get home and, my kids are the same. They fold pieces. Sometimes they’re a slinky they can’t sit up on their chair. It’s because you that you’re in a safe space and you are at your most vulnerable.

Daniel Franco 

[inaudible] so much more emotional [inaudible]. I think I think you’re right, there is an element of investment there. But I do run my own business. So I’m fully invested into that too. So, it’s just the contrast in emotion is huge. It’s huge, because one, in one environment, I’m calm collected, in the other environment I could shoot off on those on a tangent and I don’t know why that is. Sometimes I sit back and relax, sit back and think I should say, and go “What, where did that come from? Why did I do that? And I don’t believe I’m the only one.

Daniel Franco 

It is the unconditional love piece. I think there’s an element of you always know that these people, well, you hope that these people will always be there.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, yeah. And I think as long as you can learn from something, and this is another piece, so with a courageous conversation, you want to have a resolution or a solution, like there needs to be an endpoint or a finish line or some kind of direction. I think at home because we’re so reactive, rather than proactive, you don’t go into a discussion in your home life with a plan. Usually, you just kind of ad-lib. But you need to kind of get to one.

Daniel Franco 

Imagine if we did. How much easier [inaudible].

Ally Nitschke 

Well, there are a lot of people that do and they’re the ones that have the communication problems because they never really having real conversations. It’s all…

Daniel Franco 

it’s all structured. we get into the deep end, though. So, you mentioned before about you put your work face on, it’s almost surface level, does that go against the grain of building trusting relationships within the workplace? So you would think that if you want to build trusting relationships, you need to go, you need to get to the top of that pyramid sort of thing?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, I think it’s a few different things. So I think you know, we’re also, at the end of the day, and this is my own personal opinion on this, you know, we’re all there to be paid to, for what we do. We go to work and we get paid and we’re, you know, rewarded every fortnight or every month depending on what the cycle is. So we are actually there to perform at a certain level in a certain way. And we are many leaders are actually responsible for a lot of people and you know, they might have budgets that they’re responsible for as well, and pieces of work that they’re responsible for. So there is a different level of responsibility. And I think, yes, we do need to build those lasting relationships. And we can do that in different ways as opposed to oversharing and there’s this, I think it’s a bit of an untruth around authenticity like you know, hashtag authentic, does not actually mean sharing everything. You know, your co-workers are your co-workers. Your team is your team. They’re not your best friends. Sometimes they are, I ended up marrying my, one of my co-workers, many years ago. So, you know, he turned out to be right. [inaudible] going strong. But I think one of those things is that you’re not going to get on with everyone. And you don’t actually need to show every single facet of your personality in every single facet of your life, to still be able to show up with vulnerability and show up with authenticity for your team. It’s around acting within your own integrity and being able to connect at that level. That is genuine.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, I agree. The, there’s some really fantastic leaders out in the world. There are some really, less effective leaders in the world. We often hear more about the less effective leaders, we hear more about what they’re not doing. How does someone who answers to leader, have those courageous conversations? We do a lot of work with leaders and having, you know, sort of downward-facing conversations, but how does someone who is working under a less effective leader, turn to that person who may have an ego or probably does have [inaudible] some type of ego, how do they approach that conversation saying, I’m really not being treated the way I should be treated? Or whatever it might be? How do we approach this?

Ally Nitschke 

The old managing up situation? And I think this is a, this is a really great question. And something that definitely needs to happen more of, but a lot of it comes down to the individual scenario. So, some leaders are very, they do need a lot of leadership work. And depending on the vulnerability and the type of situations that you’re in, in the workplace, it’s always important to be safe and make sure that you’re going in there with a resolution solution or kind of end game. So if you are reporting to a leader who maybe perhaps needs some work, you need to show up as a leader yourself. And I don’t mean leader by position. I mean, like leadership is in your mindset, you know, how are you actually going to perform? Are you taking 100% responsibility for your role in the situation [inaudible] it’s not like you, you, you, it’s “Hey, I’ve noticed this? How about we try that?” And depending on the type of relationship you have, if it’s already the [inaudible], you’re going to want to try some pre-framing. So “hey, look, you know, I really want to talk to you about the way that we’re communicating together. Can we do this?” and it’s not going to be a single conversation that happens, just in isolation. It’ll be, it’ll be, have to be built over time, the trust built over time.

Daniel Franco 

That’s a good point. I think. Most people think of think of courageous conversations is right. I’m going to plan a situation, I’m going to plan a conversation, I’m going to give this person a performance review, whatever it is, I’m going to have this conversation with them. My thoughts is that this type of conversations should just happen every day. You should be open to providing feedback at the click of a finger really, or even just general chat.

Ally Nitschke 

Well, that’s a lot of the Kim Scott work with the Radical Candor is like open honest and frank communication should happen all the time. And if we have a relationship where you’ve built that with your team, and you can give and receive feedback that’s both positive and negative or criticism that’s actually gonna help you develop and evolve in some way, then that’s really good. That’s open honest and frank and then courageous conversations shouldn’t really be happening or if they are happening, then there shouldn’t be a surprise. But what often happens is we get this into this cycle where we don’t want to make anyone upset as in we don’t want to make them cry. So we don’t have a conversation until the performance has gone so far down the gurgler that we’re like, Okay, well, we’re going to bring them in, and this is gonna be performance management. And off we go. We sit down in an office with someone, and they’re like, “Oh, you’ve never told me that that was actually a problem”. And then that’s when the waterworks happen because it’s, you know, it’s literally a surprise attack on someone.

Daniel Franco 

Yes. I work in a work somewhere before, I won’t say where, where someone who was working underneath me, I guess, were part of our team, I was supervising, came to me and he says, “Look, I’ve got a problem with such and such. Do you mind speaking to them about this because they’re making me feel, however”. And my response was, “I can have that conversation. However, you will get more out of this conversation if you have it. Let’s plan on how you would go about it”. I guess my question from here is, why do people avoid the situation? all time? Why do they avoid having that conversation and want to deflect it onto someone else to have the conversation or…

Ally Nitschke 

It’s the [inaudible]. So it comes back to the story that we’re telling ourselves, I don’t want to do it because they’re gonna cry. Or more often than not, they know that there’s something they could have done, that they’ve been responsible in some way in the lead up to it, and not taking responsibility for themselves as well. So if you’ve got someone has asked you to have a conversation with someone else to smooth it over, perhaps if it’s totally out of line for them to do it. But more often than not, it’s because they’re just passing the buck, which is why HR usually get the call up from someone and they’re like, “Can you just do the management bit for us here” and…

Daniel Franco 

So where’s the fine line though? So where’s the line that is drawn between whether a leader should have that conversation with another staff. So, say it’s between two staff members that are having some issues, within a team, so there’s a leader of a team and he’s got two people underneath. He or she has two people working within their team. And those two people have issues.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. Do you know it’s interesting? So years ago, about 10 years ago, I, this is just after the GFC when I was working in finance, I was promoted because that’s what happens when your team performs really well. You get promoted. Yeah, thanks, team.

Daniel Franco 

Well, you gotta be half of this work [inaudible].

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I mean, they can have the limelight for that one. But I walked into an office and it was like 14 women and they were super, it was like a toxic environment. It is what you would say. And I was calling to fix it. And they were like, not happy with me, not happy with each other, hated their old boss. And you know, I was in my mid-20s, and my ponytail and I was ready to conquer the world. And they weren’t happy to see me at all.

Daniel Franco 

So just for the record, she doesn’t have a ponytail now.

Ally Nitschke 

No, no ponytail now. I’m out, you know. And, what was happening was there was a lot of infighting within like peer to peer. And I came in to, you know, fix this situation. And I had no idea what I was doing. I was like, well, maybe just don’t be rude to each other as a starting point. But there was a lot of baggage that you know, leftover baggage that happened and the previous manager hadn’t done anything about it. So there’s a lot of cultural issues, which you know, you’re you guys are all across. So yeah, while I did try and get them to talk to each other ended, there was one incident that ended up in like a hair pulling, slapping lying type thing I wish I was lying, but I am not. And yeah, I did as the leader and as the manager of that team I had to intervene for like, yeah, you know, you need to come in here. And this is how it’s going to be moving forward. And did have to be quite direct in my communication with that, because things had got completely out of control, and their infighting was impacting the entire team. So where’s the fine line? I think…

Daniel Franco 

where the [inaudible] starts…

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I think the fine line is how disruptive is it to the rest of the team? How disruptive is it to Work program or whatever work it is that you have to be doing, that you’re meant to be doing and delivering? And then you know, how much of an influence can you actually have? So, are people, Are they aware of it? Is it causing a bit of like the groupthink or the gossip down the hallway? Yeah, absolutely. You need to intervene, start with them trying to sort it out themselves. And perhaps you need to be the mediator or you know, the referee, depending on how toxic it’s gone. But yeah, our role as leaders is definitely to make sure that our team is working with you know, synergy and making sure that performing to the best they can.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, we, Michelle and I, the owner actually, worked with a client once before, where we asked the question to a group of people and then this was across the whole organization. So we, we ran a whole series of workshops across the whole organization and which workshop had about 60 or 70 people in. We asked the question, we did a little section of feedback, we asked the question, “can everyone put their hand up if they like giving feedback?” And I think there might have been, you know, maybe one or two hands every single time. So every single workshop, one or two hands went up, then we followed up with the question “How many of you like receiving feedback?” And I think I’d say 90% of the hands went up every single time for every single workshop. So, then we pose the question, “would you like receiving feedback so much, Why don’t we use more of it? And we get to become better skilled at providing feedback?” When we know that everyone genuinely that’s in the room, we know that generally everyone likes it. So it then goes into how do you build that skill set? To skill set of providing feedback and having these conversations is really important. What are some of the ways that you believe people can improve these skills? Like, is there a framework that you follow? Is there some sort of models that people can, you know, is there a bouncing ball? Do you not promote the bouncing ball stuff?

Ally Nitschke 

I actually prefer a bouncy ball. So as you know, I like to wing it, I’m very much off the cuff type of writer. But that doesn’t work for everyone like a lot of people do need some structure. So when it comes to feedback, and you’re right, people love getting it. They don’t really love giving it or they don’t know how to give it and the same thing happens for help. You know, if someone asked you for help, you would a hundred per cent help them but how often do you actually ask for help yourself? What we would love to do for someone else we don’t do for ourselves. So, when it comes to feedback, I think it’s really important to you know, check mission, depending on what your  culture is within your workplace, but say, “Hey, can I give you some feedback?” Because perhaps, and timing really is a thing for this as well when you’re giving the feedback. So say someone,

Daniel Franco 

[inaudible]

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. Let’s say someone has done, you know, one of your team members has worked really hard, they’ve presented something to the board. And they were under a lot of pressure to do it, you knew that they are nervous, they’re really leaning into their discomfort. And they did well, but you’ve got some feedback to give them. Don’t ask them as they’re walking out of the room, if you can give them some feedback, because they’re already, not disengaged. But you know, they’ve come off this high of doing something that was quite tricky. The time for feedback is not immediate, like, you know, give them a day to process and download. So when it’s high stakes situations where you want to give someone some feedback, probably give it a bit. But if it’s feedback around something that you want, that’s a repeated behaviour, then ask permission, Hey, can I give you some feedback? Yes or no? And then be like, Okay, what I saw, so actually name it, what it was the behaviour and what you liked about it, and the more specific that you can be, the better. So, at the moment, we’re all working from home and working remotely, so it’s really hard to see the behavior. But say you’re, you get an email back or paperback from one of your team and it’s really good or part of it is something that you like, be really isolating on that and say, I really liked this because of x, y, and Zed. And the more specific you can get them on the receiving end, you’re like, Okay, they liked that. I’m gonna keep doing more of that.

Daniel Franco 

It is huge. Timing. I hadn’t ever thought about how critical timing is, I think. I think it’s one of those things that I’ve always just assumed. Now, I better not say anything right now, but I’ve never thought about it as a thing that time was a thing. You touched on right now. Right, in the world that we live in? In COVID. The COVID world? How do we go about feedback in this world? Is zoom an appropriate, Zoom or Teams an appropriate platform to provide feedback?

Ally Nitschke 

Yes, I think it’s even more important that we’re giving feedback to people via zoom, and I mean, there’s not a lot of options at the moment if your social distance thing and you are working remotely, you know, there’s not a whole lot of options. Email probably not great, particularly when everyone is on zoom to providing feedback in a team environment, if it’s something that needs improvement, probably also not a great option. But yeah, definitely on Zoom, again, seek permission, booked in with your team and say, “Hey, look, I really want to give you some feedback on this last paper that you wrote, can we make time” and then actually go through it together in a collaborative way? So yeah, it is slightly different and not quite as instant, but the more that you can do face to face. So if you do a Zoom video call, then that’s perfect. If you can’t video for whatever reason, pick up the phone and actually have a conversation so that you can recognize when someone’s tone is changing, if there are any pauses, you know, if they’ve got any questions that they need to clarify as well.

Daniel Franco 

How critical is communication in a world where we’re probably more connected now than ever? But then again, more disconnected? And we are creating more stories in our head. This is a hard one for me to explain, try to get it put it into words, but you look at someone, someone’s profile on Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever like that, and you make assumptions. And we’re not, we shouldn’t, we’re not perfect, but we make assumptions, and we can probably get frustrated. So I have actually had a rule. I just hide everyone on Facebook. So I don’t ever see anything, can I get frustrated by it? Like it was a blanket rule that I made a long time ago. But there are lots of, lots of problems that start by people’s personal lives. And then people tell them stories, and therefore, there’s never a clear line of communication between and how someone might feel. How do we become more comfortable with those topics? I guess, in the sense that we’re mixing the corporate world with the personal world.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, well, I mean, we’ve all got a choice, right? You need to be mostly an adult when we’re talking about adults here. So what put online is your business. If you don’t want people to see it in your workplace that you’re also friends with on Facebook, then don’t put it on there. And if you need to have… is that where we’re going with this? [inaudible] or the conversations we are having?

Daniel Franco 

It’s more about you, you start working with someone, you become quite close with them. And I would say nine times out of 10 people at each other on Facebook. If you’re working in the same team. Problems can start from Facebook posts. Without anything ever going wrong in work, it’s just like are they always put food up what I always put post self where they’re all travelling near and then all of a sudden these this sort of resentment grows, and therefore, I don’t know how to people overcome that, that sort of build-up of knowledge and how do they then give feedback according to something that shouldn’t even really bother them?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, that is a very good question. I actually haven’t come across stat issues stemming from social media around that type of thing. But again, we’re in charge of what we consume. You don’t like it what you just said you hide all people on Facebook. What do you do on Facebook?

Daniel Franco 

I’m following news articles and leaders of the world and stuff like that. I use it as an information source as opposed to people following thing.

Ally Nitschke 

So you’ve made an active choice there not to subject yourself to that type of thing. We’ve all got a choice.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, I think, went off on a tangent a little bit, I think it was it was a team that I worked in once. And so there was some Facebook stuff going on, discredited and absolutely not made within the team. But at the end, the leader at the time, I wasn’t a leader in the team and the leader at the time just didn’t handle it very well. And I just I, it was a curious one because it’s a personal platform. It’s a free platform. It’s a personal world mingling in with the corporate world, and it just didn’t blend. Did not blend and yeah I still to this day, I still to this day I always think about that scenario because of very toxic place, right?

Ally Nitschke 

No, I haven’t come across, haven’t come across that but you know that it’s probably likely that there’ll be another wave of that. But you know, social media is there and I think it’s really important that we encourage appropriate use of it and if you don’t want your teams like if you’re not friends and don’t be friends on Facebook, it isn’t, you have a choice to accept or decline.

Daniel Franco 

like you said, we are all adults.

Ally Nitschke 

We are all adults, but no, I haven’t come across that, but that is a really good point that you make. I have to do some research I think and come up with a courageous conversation when gets out of control.

Daniel Franco 

I think that’s my point. You can’t go to someone and say “well, what you’re putting on Facebook doesn’t really appease me”.

Ally Nitschke 

But then I’ve had instances, so this is out back in the banking days as well someone and she was quite new and quite young, [inaudible]. But she took a photo with herself in front of a safe that had money in it. Totally inappropriate for the workplace. She thought it was like, you know, really cool. But you know, I put my leadership hat on so I have had had conversations like you know, there’s security risk you take photos you don’t need to have your phone in the office and all these types of things. So…

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, that’s an issue.

Ally Nitschke 

That was, it was a big issue. Really big problem. She got in quite a bit of stress about that.

Daniel Franco 

I saw, actually, I went to a security night. it was a cybersecurity night, hosting, actually it was a whiskey event with a with an element of cybersecurity, mixed the two.

Ally Nitschke 

Whiskey and Cyber.

Daniel Franco 

Whiskey and Cyber. Was a good night. And the guys were talking to, the cybersecurity guys got up and they gave a little presentation. And they said that a big problem in today’s society. And we are digressing massively here, but a big problem in today’s society is selfies, right? People are posting selfies of themselves in front of their work, work-life or hashtag work life or whatever. They’ve got posted notes with passwords in the background. Yeah, and so hackers are getting into their systems and stuff like that. So as a leader, I guess the way we can put this from conversations point of view. You know, think about what you’re putting up [inaudible].

Ally Nitschke 

I think that’s probably an induction. Put that in your induction. Appropriate social media. Get Gabriela to run a session on social media, used in the workplace, but yeah, those kinds of things. I mean, obviously the whiskey night that was disguised as cybersecurity saying, don’t write your password down anyway. Also, don’t put it on display. And then thirdly, don’t take a photo of it. So, yeah, there’s definitely going to be some things that come out over time. And you know, you see it ends up hitting the media these days. Anyway, when people do stupid stuff.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah. There are a little bit of funny articles going around. So the importance, I think we all know the importance of courageous conversations, what happens to teams who don’t have this type of environment? They don’t have the value set built-in that they can have these conversations.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, so what normally happens, and I call this the incubator of resentment. It’s sort of a cycle that teams go through. So if we’re not having regular feedback, as in open honest and frank conversations and letting people know when perhaps that nudging up against any of our boundaries, we don’t have any of those conversations. And then something happens. And we don’t say anything. And we go, I should have said something, but I haven’t. And then it happens again, and then we could become acutely aware of it. So what we start looking for and what we start focusing on is the poor behaviour or you know, to be one particular person and the classic example of this is, you might have someone in your team that always leaves their coffee, I just said it myself always. That leaves their coffee cup in the sink and you don’t say anything to them. And the next day going there and it’s two coffee cups and so you know, it’s just a coffee cup. Yeah. Just the coffee cup we’re not, we’re not gonna make a big deal out of this, you know, whatever, I’ll just wash it. You don’t say anything to the person that left it in there. And then the next day or the next week, you know, there’s another coffee cup in there and you’re like, you know what, Jane, who always leaves a coffee cup in the bloody Jane. She is really a bit of a grump. And you start telling yourself these stories, you know, she just thinks everyone’s here to wash her dishes. And she’s like, so lazy and she’s already had you know, we start getting all this judge stuff.

Daniel Franco 

Who she thinks she is.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, and then we walk past Jane’s desk we’re like, you know what? Jane has got some crumbs on her desk. And then we go Jane is an absolute slob. I can’t imagine what her home life must be like she must be an absolute pigsty, we start doing with the staff and then you know, we’ll go be in the kitchen one day with our colleagues in the morning tea “Have you guys notice that Jane actually, she never washes her cups and she leaves crumbs everywhere and she’s just a bit of a grub” and then you know your friends that you talking to him wanting to like, no, I hadn’t noticed but now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m gonna keep an eye out or it and then you’ve got a little bit of a paucity happening and then they’re starting to notice this poor behaviour as well. Still, no one said anything to Jane, Jane’s got no idea. And this keeps happening and keeps happening and keeps happening and then one day you’re having a morning tea half the team knows about Jane and a prolific cup. Non-washing activities. This [inaudible].

Daniel Franco 

[inaudible] the sink full of cups.

Ally Nitschke 

The sink full of cups. You’ve just had it, like you know you’ve had a bad morning with the kids have been Slinkys haven’t found any shoes. Story of my life. Haven’t found any shoes and Jane’s come in and not only she left her a cup in the sink, she’s left the Tupperware in the fridge and you’re like, for God’s sakes, right? I’m gonna say something to Jane. So if you go to Jane, and you really let Jane have and you’re like, you know, we’ve washed our cups in here and you don’t leave your Tupperware in the fridge and everything gets completely blown out of control. And on the receiving end, Jane’s like, “Whoa, let’s just cool [inaudible] a little, where has this all come from?” Because at no stage has anyone talked to Jane. Around this type of thing, same, okay…

Daniel Franco 

[inaudible] build up in it.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. And you know, this could be, I’ve used cups, which is one example. But it could be that someone cuts you off in a meeting all the time or someone steals your ideas or pitches your ideas as their own or takes all of the credit for the work that you’ve done as a team or, you know, there’s a whole bunch of little, incidents…

Daniel Franco 

The exact same scenario happened to me…

Ally Nitschke 

Jane?

Daniel Franco 

Not Jane, it was someone who constantly, was a leader of a team that constantly referred to “was I” “I did this” “I did that” instead of the team, one that, I think is one that you kind of would hear quite a fair bit. But if you knock it on the head straight away, it goes away. And that probably, I didn’t even realize.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, sorry. No, i did not mean it at all. Yeah, it’s definitely the awareness and it is one of those things and then when you start noticing it, and you tell someone and then everyone starts noticing it and all of a sudden it’s everywhere. [inaudible] activation system kicks in.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, this person is self-absorbed.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, I’m not gonna, you know, work with them anymore because this person doesn’t give me any credit. And they just think they’re running the whole show. And don’t they know how hard I work and that they weren’t here to, you know, seven o’clock, last night.

Daniel Franco 

The stories we tell ourselves.

Ally Nitschke 

So the stories that we tell ourselves and meanwhile, the leader who is “I,I,I” just has no self-awareness doesn’t think that way at all. It’s just a language loop that they’ve happened to themselves into.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah. It’s interesting because you get, it’s so, it’s a revelation for some of these people. They do get told. I was that person. So just to throw a spanner in the works very early on my career, I joined the team, and, you know, up and coming on in

Ally Nitschke 

Did you have a ponytail?

Daniel Franco 

Ambitious [inaudible] is that the alternative for the boy? I was really, really ambitious. And I guess we’ll bring in some new ways of thinking I came into a team that was sort of operating but still back in 1985 right. Was a few years behind and I thought I can introduce some new things here and then “I, I, I”. And it wasn’t until one of the old fellas in the team, he just sort of threw it out. It was a throwaway comment. And he’s the nicest guy in the world, It was a throwaway comment and he’s like, “and it’s always I coming out of your mouth”, and I went “Is it? No. I use, no” And I did not even notice it. And I and I, now I’m one of those people that always you know, provide or provide that feedback to others as well because it was such a moment for me to actually realize oh, hang on, I can affect the way people think about me in this situation. So self-awareness is also a critical piece in all this as well.

Ally Nitschke 

And I imagine most people that you speak to that you pick that up with a mortified to hear that that’s what they’re actually saying.

Daniel Franco 

There is a time and a place for “I”. If you have done something and you’re proud of it, then say “I did this”.

Ally Nitschke 

And if it’s your own personal opinion that’s important, that you don’t [inaudible]

Daniel Franco 

[inaudible] United front, if you’re going in as a united front, I did this and the team did this.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. If you happen to be the leader that is representing the team, then it’s pertaining. And yeah.

Daniel Franco 

So, is there a difference between feedback and courageous conversations?

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. So feedback happens first or should happen first. So feedback is sort of like the little things that you do. It shouldn’t really be daily. If you’re working, you know, working full time, working every day, feedback, some of that stuff that’s just like on the regular off the cuff. “Here it is. Yep. That’s, that’s great. I really like how you did that. But you know, it’d be good for next time is if we did it”, so and then the feedback has to be something that you can correct or improve or…

Daniel Franco 

Okay, so that’s the everyday conversation thing that we’re talking about as well. That opens the door to the more courageous conversations.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah, so courageous conversations are usually when there hasn’t been any of that feedback, or there hasn’t been any conversation prior. And this is a performance management crisis courageous conversations stuff where there hasn’t been anything prior and the courageous conversation is like, okay, we’re gonna have a serious conversation about this a bit more structure. There’s gonna be some kind of resolution, solution rule. Yeah gets more serious.

Daniel Franco 

So if you haven’t, if you give enough feedback, consistently on a daily basis, can you avoid the conversation?

Ally Nitschke 

Yes, it is the prevention, so the whole incubator of resentment thing. So it’s prevention over cure.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah.

Ally Nitschke 

So good. I mean, if everyone could read Kim Scott’s Radical Candor, they should definitely read that. It would change the way that we communicate at work, come back to my mission peace, you know if we can actually get a handle on the way that we communicate with people and get really comfortable being like “you know what you did there, not great”, because you crossed the boundary, whether it was work boundary or personal boundary, and being really respectful to each other in a way that means that we’re all trying to do the right thing courageous conversations should become less and less in the workplace and will only be if there’s some kind of monumental stuff that a creative conversation has to come into place. Or then we get the reverse side of the courageous conversations where it’s like, well, things going really well. My next nervous thing that I need courage for is asking for a promotion or my next nervous thing that I need courage for is to admit that I’ve made this huge mistake and how do I go about that in an effective way?

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, my mind’s going through a few books that I’ve read, and it’s the Ray Dalio, Principles. Have you read that?

Ally Nitschke 

No.

Daniel Franco 

I will get onto that. It’s a Ripper. Ray Dalio Principle. So Ray Dalio is one of the owners, the founders of one of the largest hedge funds in the world, managing like a portfolio of a hundred billion, if not more. I remember that it’s ridiculously large. And they use a term called ‘radical transparency’ similar to the Radical Candor. So, they avoid the courageous conversations because they use the Radical Candor approach, I guess. Because they have the radical transparency, everything is on the table from day one. This is the way we operate. It is an expectation that you will have these conversations should they arise, it is an expectation that you will live to your own values that you will live to the team’s values and you will we will hold you accountable if you don’t. That becomes an expectation and the transparencies on the…it’s brilliant.

Ally Nitschke 

Got a half [inaudible] culture [inaudible]

Daniel Franco 

Well, they grew from nothing to one of the largest hedge funds in the world. And they said that. He said that approach from the start, and the other one is Creative Inc, which is one of Michelle Holland’s favourite books she got me [inaudible] So, Creative Inc is the guys who created Pixar

Ally Nitschke 

Because she’s got Culture Inc.

Daniel Franco 

So yeah, so Creative Inc is the guys who created Pixar and they talk about when creating Toy Story is an example in the, in the book. It’s brilliant for the Disney lovers. If you want to read Creative Inc, all Disney. Now the own Pixar. So the role was that when you delivered a product, and the product was the first cut of the movie or of the animation, or the first cut of the white paper or whatever, whatever it might be, you’re delivering. You sit together in a room and you provide that open and honest feedback. And the person who’s receiving that feedback needs to be aware that they might not like what they’re going to hear. And that’s the culture. That’s the culture that they work in is that you may not like this feedback, but we’re gonna give it to you because this is what we need to do. And that’s why they’ve got hit after hit after hit twice. So 123 Inside Out all these sorts of incredible movies.

Ally Nitschke 

I love Inside Out.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah,  Inside Out is the smartest cartoon i’ve ever seen.

Ally Nitschke 

So good, isn’t it?

Daniel Franco 

It’s brilliant.

Ally Nitschke 

[inaudible] Yeah, Pixar movie around your feelings and it’s from a little girl’s perspective and feelings and the emotions are the character’s inside their head.

Daniel Franco 

There are 5 feelings is it it’s?

Ally Nitschke 

There’s joy,

Ally Nitschke 

Sadness,

Ally Nitschke 

Fear, sadness, anger, and disgust. So funny, and memories.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, and memory. Yeah. So yeah, I think that so, this whole culture of providing feedback, I guess, is where we’re getting to here completely remove the need for the really tough conversation. Obviously, there’s always going to be the odd one here and there. But if we can create a culture of radical transparency, then and Radical Candor?

Ally Nitschke 

I think so. And you know, there’s that the quote around success leaves clues, right? So if we start looking at the businesses that I excel in, and a lot of the myth of Silicon Valley, you know, the Googles of the world, if you start looking into how they actually operate, it all comes down to the communication like they’ve got really clear open communication. Because they don’t have time to get caught up in all of the performance management stuff and politics but also, they just have the conversation and move, have the conversation and move on.

Daniel Franco 

If you can have a tough conversation with one of one particular leader in the world at the moment.

Ally Nitschke 

Ah, I don’t know where I’m gonna go with this.

Daniel Franco 

So well, let’s talk about Donald Trump. Okay, that type of leader, the egotistical, self-absorbed, whatever that type of leader. Yeah. And they go into the politics of it all. How do you approach someone like that? to have that conversation? is one my first question. My second question is, do you even bother?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I mean, if they’re not running a country, it’s probably easier to approach it and have that conversation. So if you take like a, it’s you’ve got a CEO of a company who has Trump qualities and hopefully they’ve got a board that can step in place and sort of say, “Hey, here’s a bit of a self-reflection piece. We’re getting this feedback”. Hopefully, if they’ve been promoted to that kind of position that they are getting 360 feedback from their peers and then taking that on board. If they’re not, and say you happen to be one of the exec directors or something like that, and you see his behaviour and attitude towards leadership needs to work, you’re going to need to have some tough conversations with them. And the thing with that is yes, there’s definitely going to be ego involved. You know, if we go back to Brene Brown’s work again, there’s gonna be some shame shields. So more often than not people that are behaving in a way that and people know you know, we know what a good leader is, we know at least you know a handful of all of these and if we’re not doing those and you’re not self-aware about it, but you’re also probably hiding something so there’s probably a bit of shame work going on in there. There’s been an ego that’s gotten into the way so really having those conversations around what it is that you want to stand for, as a company what you want to stand for as a leader how you want to be perceived, but yeah, it’ll be a tough conversation should definitely call me, I hope…but yeah, it’s one of those [inaudible].

Daniel Franco 

But I think the other thing is though, at what point do you have that conversation without a leader? At what point do you stop banging your head against the wall? If it does, if things don’t change, you follow all the approaches that you need to processes and the bouncing balls and then the asking for permission. You do all of that. And nothing changes.

Ally Nitschke 

With your own leader?

Daniel Franco 

With the leader that you’re reporting to. Like, yeah, so General Manager reporting to CEO, whoever it might be?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I think if you’ve exhausted all of the tools that you’ve got available to yourself to you, and you’ve exhausted all of the options that there are in terms of communication channels and trying to have the conversations, then I’d be having a real hard look at whether or not your values align with the company and whether or not your self-care and your own resilience is worth staying there because it’s going to be an uphill battle. And you know, when we know that there’s this kind of turbulence and there’s this kind of distrust within the management team or the leadership team, you’re not going to be feeling great. You’re going to be going home feeling stressed all the time, there’s going to be a lot of stories that you’re telling yourself as well. Cut ties, you know, you can’t, you can’t change everyone, what you can do is change the situations that you’re in. And if it means that you are in a situation where you’re having to deal with someone who’s not great, and you’ve tried, and you’ve tried and you’ve tried, you’re in control of the choices you make.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, I think that’s critical. Most people, a lot of people are not true to their own values. Are they in a situation like that, because things like money, mortgage, kids school, all that sort of stuff come into play?

Ally Nitschke 

But you know, it’s really interesting just on that, so I asked my community just last week around what their measures of success were, and perhaps this is a little bit different because I right in the midst of COVID, and everyone sort of coming out of lock locked down, particularly here in Adelaide, but overwhelmingly and I got a massive response from what people use as their measures of success is being able to practice peacefulness. Going home to a family that I love, having quality time, having a support system around me, having something that’s outside of the workplace, we’re all people’s measures of success. There were very few people that measured their success through work. So whether there’s been a shift and I suspect there is I’m still doing some, some work on that. But I think we’re becoming more and more aware of what it is that actually makes up life and it’s not going to work every day banging your head on a wall, trying to do the best that you can with what you’ve got and not getting any.

Daniel Franco 

Correct. A look at successes almost like a pie chart. There are just different elements of success and how fulfilled you are in each of those segments.

Ally Nitschke 

The Wheel of Life, right?

Daniel Franco 

Yeah, absolutely. So one last question before we get into my favourite part, the rapid-fire question, the takeaway for anyone listening to this podcast, what’s one bouncing ball method we’ve used something like before you know stop bringing back the [inaudible] it’s sort of behaviour impact. Feelings and future like, what is the behaviour? What is the impact, what feelings, how it made you feel and what how we can change in the future? What do you tend to…

Ally Nitschke 

The courageous conversations?

Daniel Franco 

Yeah.

Ally Nitschke 

So, I go get your stories, we’ll find your facts first, like gather what it is, you know, the whole “Is that true question”. So, some self-coaching questions around there, getting your story straight in your head. Begin with the end in mind. So where are you actually taking this conversation? What do you want the outcome to be? And then you actually need to plan. So, if you’re having courageous conversations, you do actually need to have a bit of work that goes into it. So planning what you’re going to say, are you going presenter it, where you want to lead someone and then go for it, you know, courageous conversations, you’re not always going to feel comfortable but you are going to get better at them and recognizing that the uncomfortableness is a bit that happens just before you get to the good stuff. And then being able to lean into that.

Daniel Franco 

Beautiful. All right, rapid-fire questions and not so, these ones, I try to keep them rapid-fire but they are…

Ally Nitschke 

Less rapid.

Daniel Franco 

We end up talking. We talk about books right and I’ll just talk for an hour on so…

Ally Nitschke 

We’re already up to an hour now.

Daniel Franco 

We are. Okay, so favourite book on courageous conversations This is a specific question. What is your favourite book?

Ally Nitschke 

Do you know it is actually Radical Candor?

Daniel Franco 

It has to be.

Ally Nitschke 

It has to be. I love it.

Daniel Franco 

You don’t stop talking about it.

Ally Nitschke 

I know, [inaudible] copy of it.

Daniel Franco 

You did. Thank you very much.

Ally Nitschke 

I love Radical Candor. And it’s one of those things that I think, we’re talking about it again. It’s one of those things, you know, success is showing up in ways that you know, wherever it is, it’s closed. So, Kim Scott’s got like a plethora of success, a successful trial and it’s all come down to she’s breaking down this method of Radical Candor, open honest and frank conversation.

Daniel Franco 

Yes. Perfect. So what’s one other than, Okay, other than Brene’s stuff, the Dare to Lead and Kim’s  Radical Candor. What’s one book that you have recommended to more people?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, it’s actually one that I’m reading at the moment and I’m not reading it. It’s audible and it is called ‘The Secret Code of Success’ by Noah St. John, I think you’d really like it actually.

Daniel Franco 

‘The Secret Code of Success’.

Ally Nitschke 

And it is around surrounding yourself with reflective, friendly mirrors in terms of getting to your true authenticity or your authentic self when there are not anyone else’s opinions or I guess anything else getting in the way. It’s really…

Daniel Franco 

Is it like a brusque approach is that the angle on it or no?

Ally Nitschke 

No, it’s around self-reflection, self-worth and just getting like deep. You know? Like I say, leadership’s an inside out job. So it’s really getting to the crux of you know, who you are at your most cool. It’s good.

Ally Nitschke 

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Ally Nitschke 

Teleportation.

Daniel Franco 

How good. I think that is on my list, I’m going to write that down. Teleportation.

Ally Nitschke 

I’ve wanted to teleport for years.

Daniel Franco  

How good would travel be? Right now probably not so much.

Ally Nitschke 

Yeah. How much time we saving not community.

Daniel Franco 

But is it a superpower?

Ally Nitschke 

Well, I don’t know anyone can do it. Do you?

Daniel Franco 

I know but superpower save people, don’t they? [inaudible]

Ally Nitschke 

What X-ray vision Do? What, yeah.

Daniel Franco 

I can teleport.

Daniel Franco 

Yes. teleportation. [inaudible]

Ally Nitschke 

If there is an X man then it’s definitely a superpower. Yeah.

Daniel Franco 

He’s like a beast. He’s a beast? Someone, anyway. What’s one of the things that most annoys you?

Ally Nitschke 

Oh, good question. People chewing with their mouth open.

Daniel Franco 

With chewing gum or in general?

Ally Nitschke 

Just in general.

Daniel Franco 

Yeah. That annoys me too. I reckon I do that. I reckon I annoy myself. Very good. And my favourite question. What is your favourite dad joke?

Ally Nitschke 

Knock knock.

Daniel Franco 

Who’s there?

Ally Nitschke 

Boo.

Ally Nitschke 

No need to cry. It is only a joke.

Daniel Franco 

That’s horrible. My kids use that. Why don’t knew that was coming. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Ally, you have been amazing to chat to.

Ally Nitschke 

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It’s been great.

Daniel Franco 

Not a problem at all. Ally Nitschke, where do we find you?

Ally Nitschke 

I hang out on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn or Facebook or my website.

Daniel Franco 

Excellent. Your website?

Ally Nitschke 

madeformore.com.au.

Daniel Franco 

Perfect. Thank you very much. This is Creating Synergy signing out. Cheers.

Outro:

Thank you once again for joining us here at Creating Synergy. It’s been great spending this time with you. Please jump onto the SynergyIQ Facebook page where the discussion continues after the show. Join our mailing list so you’ll know what’s happening next at synergyiq.com.au. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast and if you really enjoyed it, please share it with your friends.

Meet our Host

Daniel Franco

Daniel Franco

Daniel has a passion to help people shift their lives and businesses to another level, regardless of their current success. His pure enthusiasm and joy for creating long lasting relationships is paramount to the success of our Clients and SynergyIQ.

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